Reply to: The Euro MEP who claimed for an elephant on expenses.

[Platypus]

Democracy isn't about letting the people decide things. Democracy is about letting the people choose those who can make the difficult decisions for them. It's not necessarily that the people are too stupid to make a decision on the EU. The vast majority just don't have the time or the inclination to properly research the issues over the economy, jobs, immigration, even if they were intelligent enough to understand and reach a fair and reasonable conclusion, and we wouldn't really want the great unwashed to be doing that anyway - there are far more useful things people can be doing with their time than everybody playing at being PM.

No we have elected officials who do have the time to consult with experts and decide things, and if we don't like the decisions they make, we elect different officials (at least that's the theory). That's representative democracy.

FTFY

There are several different democratic models, such as direct democracy and popular democracy, as well as the model we use in the UK which is indeed representative democracy

</pedant>

[woohoo]

The trouble with letting the people decide is that they are mostly morons. Do you think when Ug discovered fire the tribe had a vote to decide if it was a good idea? No, the elders and shaman decided to adopt it while all the superstitious, frightened little people toed the line.

Who knows what they did. But at least there is an opportunity every few years to vote the buggers out. But we elect people to make many of our decisions for us. So using your painfully crap analogy the elders and shaman would be voted in. If they are tulip we don't have to go and kill em and feed them to the local saber tooth - which is frankly dangerous for every one involved.

[VectraMan]

But that's not a reason to deny them a vote otherwise we should just get rid of an elected government and be ruled by the Queen.

Democracy isn't about letting the people decide things. Democracy is about letting the people choose those who can make the difficult decisions for them. It's not necessarily that the people are too stupid to make a decision on the EU. The vast majority just don't have the time or the inclination to properly research the issues over the economy, jobs, immigration, even if they were intelligent enough to understand and reach a fair and reasonable conclusion, and we wouldn't really want the great unwashed to be doing that anyway - there are far more useful things people can be doing with their time than everybody playing at being PM.

No we have elected officials who do have the time to consult with experts and decide things, and if we don't like the decisions they make, we elect different officials (at least that's the theory). That's democracy.

[kal]

The trouble with letting the people decide is that they are mostly morons. Do you think when Ug discovered fire the tribe had a vote to decide if it was a good idea? No, the elders and shaman decided to adopt it while all the superstitious, frightened little people toed the line.

But that's not a reason to deny them a vote otherwise we should just get rid of an elected government and be ruled by the Queen.

[kal]

Is the economy not somewhat important?

Yes but its an easy shield to use, oh we can't ask the people (in a democracy!) because it might cost jobs... let the people decide, in all honesty I would probably vote to stay in the EU but if a majority decide to leave then so be it.

[darmstadt]

Maria Miller scandal: if you think Westminster


Can somebody, anybody please get us out of this madhouse!

Quite interesting but as any person with a modicum of intelligence would already know much of this and not rely on a newspaper (owned by 'possible' UK tax dodgers) which has an agenda against the EU to report it, and report some of it in such a way as to look bad. Some of it is quite wrong you know?

Willard Foxton (*) says:

On top of that, they get €152 for every day they turn up in parliament – and €152 euros more if they vote more than 50 per cent of the time.

But in reality:

This allowance is a payment of €304 per day (frozen at 2011 rates), and is payable for each day that we attend an official Parliament meeting or are present at an EU institution (Luxembourg, Brussels or Strasbourg) during an official working day for work purposes.

When we are on official visits outside the EU, we are paid 50% of that daily rate plus our accommodation costs.

(* Willard Foxton is a card-carrying Tory and here is one of his blogs about being a sad loner: 28 Dates Later)

[BlasterBates]

For someone paying around 20 grand tax, they probably paid about 150 quid to the EU.


I wonder how much extra we might be paying for European goods if we left the EU (as they do in Switzerland).

[Mich the Tester]

Cleggy convincingly lost the last battle with Nige, hiding behind the economy as to the reason why he wont sign up to a referendum, let the people have their say and put this to bed once and for all...

Is the economy not somewhat important?

[hyperD]

Vote doodab!

[doodab]

Can somebody, anybody please get us out of this madhouse!

Bugger that. I'm joining UKIP and getting myself elected.

[MicrosoftBob]

Letting the people decide goes against all the principles of the EU.

And Clegg wouldn't be able to take up that nice EU Commissioner job he has lined up?

I think Neil Kinnock would have more chance

[OwlHoot]

MEP Hans-Peter Martin: 'Elephant' Claim - Business Insider

. Disappointingly the expense claim is probably just for a book.

Maybe he's keen to get into Topos Theory, and ordered Peter Johnstone's comprehensive tomes on the subject Sketches of an Elephant - A Topos Theory Compendium: 2 Volume Set (Oxford Logic Guides)

If only he'd waited a couple of years, I gather Prof Johnstone is working on a revised expanded edition and possibly a couple more volumes

[doodab]

The trouble with letting the people decide is that they are mostly morons. Do you think when Ug discovered fire the tribe had a vote to decide if it was a good idea? No, the elders and shaman decided to adopt it while all the superstitious, frightened little people toed the line.

[hyperD]

Vote UKIP!

[Flashman]

Cleggy convincingly lost the last battle with Nige, hiding behind the economy as to the reason why he wont sign up to a referendum, let the people have their say and put this to bed once and for all...

Letting the people decide goes against all the principles of the EU.

And Clegg wouldn't be able to take up that nice EU Commissioner job he has lined up?