Reply to: I don't often agree with Cristina Odone, but...

[sasguru]

Perhaps they are not a competition to you ( ), but they pose real competition to hundreds of thousands of English graduates!

To be fair graduates of English shouldn't really expect that many jobs.
Unless you mean English graduates of which I am one - albeit from 25 years ago.
My point, which you miss again, being thick, is that if your skills are only good enough to compete with the limited skills that these Indians bring ( and believe me, every company I've worked in has a floor of Indians - 95% of whom have no comms, problem solving or business skills) then you should look at the value of your degree.
I have no doubt that under labour who changed the Polys from institutions awarding good techie qualifications to "Unis" offering tulipe quals not worth the paper they're written on, that this has come to pass.
So the only real argument is that their tulipe people have replaced our tulipe people - which I guess is some sort of point.
Good grads from good unis have NO PROBLEMS AT ALL GETTING JOBS.
T'was always thus.

[vetran]

Perhaps they are not a competition to you ( ), but they pose real competition to hundreds of thousands of English graduates!

that's allright he has a job for life on the bins!

[mos]

AFAIK none of that lot are ever seen in the UK, we get the dregs who do the tulipe work.
Not that I mind since the lot we get are no competition at all, unless you're cognitively limited like mos.

Perhaps they are not a competition to you ( ), but they pose real competition to hundreds of thousands of English graduates!

[sasguru]

I'd guess the majority of starter uppers are the guys who studied in the US at the the likes of Stanford, MIT, Caltech etc as well, so deffo the cream of the crop. It's more of the same old story that the US are better at commercialising innovation than we are.

I think many of them do postgrad studies in the US, but do their first degrees at the IIT - the few unis in India that are supposed to be any good.

Indian Institutes of Technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AFAIK none of that lot are ever seen in the UK, we get the dregs who do the tulipe work.
Not that I mind since the lot we get are no competition at all, unless you're cognitively limited like mos.

[doodab]

You stupid, stupid man.
What have H-1B visas to do with those who started companies like Sun?
That's my point exactly - we only get the grads of tulip Indian universities, the third raters who are sent here on these visas, while at least the US guys get the IIT grads who are a different quality altogether.

I can see why you struggle in the workplace, your logical skills and knowledge are very poor indeed.

I'd guess the majority of starter uppers are the guys who studied in the US at the the likes of Stanford, MIT, Caltech etc as well, so deffo the cream of the crop. It's more of the same old story that the US are better at commercialising innovation than we are.

[sasguru]

Read this:

Indian ambassador to US warns of retaliation if H-1B reforms go ahead

Perhaps this will clear a few things in your little head.

You stupid, stupid man.
What have H-1B visas to do with those who started companies like Sun?
That's my point exactly - we only get the grads of tulip Indian universities, the third raters who are sent here on these visas, while at least the US guys get the IIT grads who are a different quality altogether.

I can see why you struggle in the workplace, your logical skills and knowledge are very poor indeed.

[doodab]

The local guys who worked at local wages and whom they fired were very good enough, thank you very much.

But were they cheap enough? When those same staff can be poached to come and work in the UK (and my current client has been doing this hand over fist lately) for UK rates, local rates won't stay low for long.

The other point I was making the other day is about southern European countries struggling to recover because being stuck in the Euro they can't devalue their currencies and make wages and exports relatively cheaper. That coupled with the austerity measures they've been forced to impose for bailouts has been disastrous for them. It could even be that your client is worried about disruption due to social unrest in the medium term, which is quite likely.

Are you sure? My ex Clientco was using Glasgow and Talinin as a decoy while they continue to send thousands of jobs to New Delhi.

Very sure. They've been building it up out there for a few years and it's done them proud, they have a very competent infrastructure team and plenty of good quality devs out there (though again a few have been poached to work overseas) and eastern Europe is a growth market for the product set they specialise in so strategically it's well placed. I also know the directors are keen on organic growth and while they are looking to make the most of opportunities in the EU they aren't particularly keen on going global.

[SunnyInHades]

All these immigration discussions are missing one key point... Where are we going to be in 10 - 15 years time if tough action (either way) is taken now. A small city of people comes to the UK every year and what is going to happen when they start having families and their families start etc etc...

IMO we need a tough stance now to avoid a problem in the decades to come, not particularly because there is a problem right here and now.

Population Majority Foreign Born Or Ethnic Minorities
================================================== ===
2014: Leicester, Luton and Slough
2020: Birmingham predicted
2050: ?

2500: ? - a long way off, impossible to visualize .. wish I could peer into a crystal ball for a second to see that

[mos]

The facts

Yes most of those who started companies are better than me as I haven't started one that employed more than me.
But that's still better than a whining arse like you has achieved

Read this:

Indian ambassador to US warns of retaliation if H-1B reforms go ahead

Perhaps this will clear a few things in your little head.

[sasguru]

Yeah, I bet in US you would complain that Europe gets all the "best and brightest".
Btw - just because they are better than you, it does not mean that they are good.

The facts

Yes most of those who started companies are better than me as I haven't started one that employed more than me.
But that's still better than a whining arse like you has achieved

[mos]

Perhaps they are having trouble finding good people at the right price in Europe?

The local guys who worked at local wages and whom they fired were very good enough, thank you very much.

My previous client is expanding their offshore dev & hosting centre in Bulgaria as we speak so it's not all one way traffic.

Are you sure? My ex Clientco was using Glasgow and Talinin as a decoy while they continued sending thousands of jobs to New Delhi and Singapore.

[doodab]

Tell unemployed youth that steady call centre jobs are tuliptier than workfare @ Poundland!

I didn't say they were the tulipest jobs going, I said they were tulip. Speaking from personal experience I'd say they are marginally better than being a bin man or sorting mail bags for those who can take the constant stream of verbal abuse that many of them entail, but not nearly as good as semi skilled work in a factory assembling stuff with power tools.

And fyi - my client co sent several good jobs from Southern Europe straight to India only last month!

Perhaps they are having trouble finding good people at the right price in Europe? My previous client is expanding their offshore dev & hosting centre in Bulgaria as we speak so it's not all one way traffic.

[mos]

Most of the jobs that went to Asia were tulipty ones in call centres and manufacturing sweatshops. They went because it was cheap. Arguably some of those will come back to southern europe now, or should, particularly clothing manufacture but also bicycles, white goods etc.

I expect they wont because none of those countries can devalue their currency to become more competitive.

Tell unemployed youth that steady call centre jobs are tuliptier than workfare @ Poundland!
And fyi - my client co sent several good jobs from Southern Europe straight to India only last month!

[doodab]

The problem is that the Labour party has a corporatist agenda, because they believe that the best way to keep Labour voters is to ensure a big pool of poor people to vote for them

And also because they're racist and assume foreigners are more likely to vote Labour

The don't really like big business, but it suits them to pursue the same policies

Modern labour has a corporatist agenda because they were forced to adopt one to become electable. Such was the effectiveness of pro business, pro globalization, pro free market propoganda in the early 90s.

Worked out well.

[doodab]

Many millions of good jobs shifted to Asia - if they did not care about those jobs, why would they care about minute fraction which went to fellow EU citizens. Or people have very short memory.

Most of the jobs that went to Asia were tulipty ones in call centres and manufacturing sweatshops. They went because it was cheap. Arguably some of those will come back to southern europe now, or should, particularly clothing manufacture but also bicycles, white goods etc.

I expect they wont because none of those countries can devalue their currency to become more competitive.