Reply to: Britain hysterical over immigration

[AtW]

If employers struggle to recruit cleaners in London maybe they should think about re-locating to Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow? People there need the jobs. Any jobs.

People who really needs jobs will relocate, it's much harder for immigrants to do that by going to totally different country than for somebody in Glasgow or Birmingham.

Now if Govt really wanted people to get employed they'd allow PAYE taxes (both NICs+income tax) to be offset against corp tax.

[darmstadt]

We have 2.5 million people unemployed in this country. 1 million young adults without a job.

If employers struggle to recruit cleaners in London maybe they should think about re-locating to Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow? People there need the jobs. Any jobs.

Nooooo that's far too a radical an idea. Lets import another '000's Eastern Europeans. Let the proles fight it out amongst themselves.


Troll on.

Well that wouldn't actually work because the cleaners are needed in London, I suppose you could employ a load of imported bus drivers to shuttle them to and from work

Alternatively:

- UK leaves the EU
- UK deports all those people without a valid UK visa
- London shuts down due to lack of staff in hotels, shops, etc.

[Flashman]

That list was just to show that immigrants do actually do well...It might shock some of the bigots out there that their favourite shop was started by a Pole...



I don't know where you got that idea, I'm just pointing out where the information is and for people not to just jump on the UKIP/Tory/bigot bandwagon without checking those facts. I too also don't favour this so-called 'benefit tourism' (which has actually been shown to be pretty much bollocks.) Interestingly enough there was an article or two in the German press recently just about that, British people moving to German because the benefits are better there



Its a nice idea, get the higher skilled people only but then who's going to support them? The cleaner, the shop assistant, the fruit picker? Sadly you need checks and balances, you can't just have your cake and eat it...

We have 2.5 million people unemployed in this country. 1 million young adults without a job.

If employers struggle to recruit cleaners in London maybe they should think about re-locating to Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow? People there need the jobs. Any jobs.

Nooooo that's far too a radical an idea. Lets import another '000's Eastern Europeans. Let the proles fight it out amongst themselves.


Troll on.

[darmstadt]

So why exactly should British citizens suffer the cost and nuisance of that? Your problem is that you oppose any criticism of immigration in general and often in irrational terms, trotting out the names a few foreign born business people is a pretty daft argument in favour of a poorly regulated flow of millions.

That list was just to show that immigrants do actually do well...It might shock some of the bigots out there that their favourite shop was started by a Pole...

I, and most people, are not against immigration, just badly regulated excessive immigration. Please stop generalising and tell us why you think those needing benefits or social housing or who are in poor health, or have a criminal record should be allowed into the UK.

I don't know where you got that idea, I'm just pointing out where the information is and for people not to just jump on the UKIP/Tory/bigot bandwagon without checking those facts. I too also don't favour this so-called 'benefit tourism' (which has actually been shown to be pretty much bollocks.) Interestingly enough there was an article or two in the German press recently just about that, British people moving to German because the benefits are better there

It is not really immigration as such that is the problem but the failure to set high enough standards and the shear numbers which strain our facilities and push up prices. We do not have a duty to take in people at all levels, we should ONLY take in the very best. It is not GDP that matters or even GDP per capita but the GDP per capita AND the quality of life of the existing British population. Taking in people of all levels does nothing for us, what is the use of a skilled doctor if we also take in people who need full time services of a doctor? What is the point of a businessman if his business is selling food to other migrants? We could grow our GDP by annexing Somalia and making it part of the UK but would it really be a good idea?

Its a nice idea, get the higher skilled people only but then who's going to support them? The cleaner, the shop assistant, the fruit picker? Sadly you need checks and balances, you can't just have your cake and eat it...

[AtW]

The lots of the Romanian criminals and virtually all the beggars are Roma.

Bring on more beggars like these -

[SueEllen]

No objection from me if migrants start really useful businesses that employ British people, provide valuable work experience, help exports or tourism. Even good shop/restaurants can improve life but there is precious little benefit in a proliferation of tiny businesses that simply take passing trade from others, especially when they make so little profit that bosses/workers have to resort to benefits to support a family.

Unfortunately, there can be an undue reliance on such low profit micro businesses among migrants and ethnic minorities, take a look at this report by Tower Hamlet council. The oversupply of fast food shops is a serious health risk to a very unhealthy area. It's exactly the same in some other places like Sparkhill in Birmingham:

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/idoc....a50&version=-1

Some of the fast food shops are chains (or franchises), just like the betting and pound shops amongst them.

I guess Tower Hamlets would prefer more empty shops than fast food shops? Unfortunately in areas like that, that's the choice they have.

[SueEllen]

Fine, so limit immigration to people like that and we are on the same side. Problem is, you seem to support totally slack rules that allow in far larger numbers of far less useful people. You may not think they should mention it but The Daily Mail does not make up those stories of Romanian criminals and beggars you know. Eg from Westminster council:

Westminster City Council - Begging

So why exactly should British citizens suffer the cost and nuisance of that? Your problem is that you oppose any criticism of immigration in general and often in irrational terms, trotting out the names a few foreign born business people is a pretty daft argument in favour of a poorly regulated flow of millions.

I, and most people, are not against immigration, just badly regulated excessive immigration. Please stop generalising and tell us why you think those needing benefits or social housing or who are in poor health, or have a criminal record should be allowed into the UK.

The lots of the Romanian criminals and virtually all the beggars are Roma.

France, Italy, Spain and other EU countries have problems with Roma so don't expect the UK to be excluded.

There have actually are and have been a fair few Romanians working in the EU including the UK who are law abiding since 2004.

They find the Roma an embarrassment as they aren't part of "normal" Romanian society like travellers aren't part of ours.

[xoggoth]

Yep, like Easyjet (Greek), Marks and Spencers (Marks was Belarusian), Tesco (Polish), Rothschild (German), Selfridges (American), Ribena - GSK (American), ARM (Austria)...

Fine, so limit immigration to people like that and we are on the same side. Problem is, you seem to support totally slack rules that allow in far larger numbers of far less useful people. You may not think they should mention it but The Daily Mail does not make up those stories of Romanian criminals and beggars you know. Eg from Westminster council:

Westminster City Council - Begging

So why exactly should British citizens suffer the cost and nuisance of that? Your problem is that you oppose any criticism of immigration in general and often in irrational terms, trotting out the names a few foreign born business people is a pretty daft argument in favour of a poorly regulated flow of millions.

I, and most people, are not against immigration, just badly regulated excessive immigration. Please stop generalising and tell us why you think those needing benefits or social housing or who are in poor health, or have a criminal record should be allowed into the UK.

[darmstadt]

No objection from me if migrants start really useful businesses that employ British people, provide valuable work experience, help exports or tourism.

Yep, like Easyjet (Greek), Marks and Spencers (Marks was Belarusian), Tesco (Polish), Rothschild (German), Selfridges (American), Ribena - GSK (American), ARM (Austria)...

[xoggoth]

No objection from me if migrants start really useful businesses that employ British people, provide valuable work experience, help exports or tourism. Even good shop/restaurants can improve life but there is precious little benefit in a proliferation of tiny businesses that simply take passing trade from others, especially when they make so little profit that bosses/workers have to resort to benefits to support a family.

Unfortunately, there can be an undue reliance on such low profit micro businesses among migrants and ethnic minorities, take a look at this report by Tower Hamlet council. The oversupply of fast food shops is a serious health risk to a very unhealthy area. It's exactly the same in some other places like Sparkhill in Birmingham:

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/idoc....a50&version=-1

[darmstadt]

Your point about selling food to other migrants is a point of failure.

Any business person in the food business knows they will only make pots of money if they can sell to most of the population therefore they aim, and some have succeeded, in selling what was originally foreign food to the masses.

Abit like Pataks: The Patak's Story although Sharwoods is not so: Sharwoods

[SueEllen]

Your point about selling food to other migrants is a point of failure.

Any business person in the food business knows they will only make pots of money if they can sell to most of the population therefore they aim, and some have succeeded, in selling what was originally foreign food to the masses.

[xoggoth]

This basically means that UK citizens are more of a drain on the state than migrants, in fact figures from the Department for Work and Pensions even bear that out

One needs to look a bit closer.

One fact you are leaving out is that UK citizens claim more in large part because they are much older and often retired. Most are only getting back what they are entitled to, having paid tax and NI for many decades, and it is not reasonable to make a comparison with those who claim having contributed very little. On an age comparative basis, the 2007 Home Office report stated that proportionally more migrants are unemployed compared with the UK-born population. Trying to cope with an ageing population by importing people who will age themselves is not exactly forward thinking, what do we do then, import even more?

Another is that the descendants of previous migrants are overrepresented among those British welfare claimants. While it is perfectly true that the legal Chinese and Indians do perform above average on many measures, some other major groups have higher access to welfare and social housing, worse health and are overrepresented in our prisons. Not just by few percentages points either. One has to ask, if they were all so wonderful when they came, where did things go wrong?

It is not really immigration as such that is the problem but the failure to set high enough standards and the shear numbers which strain our facilities and push up prices. We do not have a duty to take in people at all levels, we should ONLY take in the very best. It is not GDP that matters or even GDP per capita but the GDP per capita AND the quality of life of the existing British population. Taking in people of all levels does nothing for us, what is the use of a skilled doctor if we also take in people who need full time services of a doctor? What is the point of a businessman if his business is selling food to other migrants? We could grow our GDP by annexing Somalia and making it part of the UK but would it really be a good idea?

A basic bit of maths you should bear in mind, adding more of average quality does not raise an average.

[Old Greg]

Indeed.

CMD is in China right this minute learning how to kowtow.

And I would like to be the first to welcome our new overlords and to offer them a list of individuals who are opposed to their new rule.

[Old Greg]

Who's accused anyone of racism in this thread?

The racist.