Reply to: Are dinner expenses um... ethical?

[Mich the Tester]

Ah, I didn't like the ending. I thought something more exciting would happen than you just sat in a chair doing FA. But it started very well.

9/10.

I'm too scared to consider terrorism.

[Platypus]

.... and if they try to limit my spending on going out for a meal in the evening then I'll just bloody well work less so I can pay less tax and claim whatever tax credits I can get for having a 'low income'.

Rant over.

Ah, I didn't like the ending. I thought something more exciting would happen than you just sat in a chair doing FA. But it started very well.

9/10.

[Mich the Tester]

What is this crap about 'ethical'?

I spend 4 nights a week away from home, earning a living and paying tuliploads of tax to finance interfering politicians, nosey parkers at the tax office, lazy gits like my neighbour who fake their disability and other assorted scumbags. I've spent about a hundred thousand euros on training since I started working in IT 15 years ago, I have experienced a clientco going bust leaving me 30,000 euros out of pocket and another clientco committing bankruptcy fraud leaving me 20,000 euros out of pocket, I drive all the way across an admittedly fairly small country to spend all week near clientco, I often field phone calls from clientco's staff late in the evening and early in the morning, and at the weekend there is no greater pleasure than sitting down to a simple home made dinner with a couple of candles on the table with Lady Tester. I don't expect sympathy because I've chosen this way of life, but if I want to make my evenings away from home a little more pleasant by eating a nice meal in a decent restaurant, and yes, choosing a wine that compliments the food, then as far as I can see, there's no 'ethics' involved; it's common sense and completely fair, and if some busybodying little tulipe at the tax office who goes home at 5 every day and has never spent a night away from home for his 'work' wants to stop me, then he can think again, because this taxpayer is sick to the back teeth of financing the misplaced jealousy of politicians and civil servants, and if they try to limit my spending on going out for a meal in the evening then I'll just bloody well work less so I can pay less tax and claim whatever tax credits I can get for having a 'low income'.

Rant over.

[NotAllThere]

And if you want ethics in contracting head easteatht on the A12

FTFY

[bless 'em all]

1)
2) Who do you think pays your expenses? No one is going to give you money - you pay your expenses, the 'expense' bit means you get the money back from what you earn before tax.
NorthernladUK Comment generator

What!! Nobody ever mentioned that bit!! Are you sure?

I've been deducting it from my VAT payments.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I was talking about evening meal. Spoke to someone at HMRC in the end, and even he wasn't sure if a lunch time claim had to coincide with around lunch time, as I had read somewhere (so there!). He checked with his colleagues, and finally said I could buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner together, in the morning, and still claim for them separately. And it's fine to claim for an evening meal. They set the rule, that if you're out for more than 10 hours, you can claim, so they will stick to that. I think it would only be taking the piss if I was actually getting my client to pay for these things, as I originally thought.

You live and learn. Then you know everything.

If you are out of the house for 10 hours or more and travelling to a temporary workplace then you can claim £10 under the benchmark scale rates; if you were to claim for breakfast or dinner you would need to prove that your start time or finish time were exceptional and were before 6am and after 8pm HM Revenue & Customs: Revenue & Customs Brief 24/09

[DirtyDog]

I was talking about evening meal. Spoke to someone at HMRC in the end, and even he wasn't sure if a lunch time claim had to coincide with around lunch time, as I had read somewhere (so there!). He checked with his colleagues, and finally said I could buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner together, in the morning, and still claim for them separately. And it's fine to claim for an evening meal. They set the rule, that if you're out for more than 10 hours, you can claim, so they will stick to that. I think it would only be taking the piss if I was actually getting my client to pay for these things, as I originally thought.

You live and learn. Then you know everything.

Did you get a name and a call reference?

[half]

Its ok, British Oyster season would have finished by the start of September so its fine

That's what my limo driver said before I sacked him.

[half]

So to be clear, were you talking about midday or evening meal? Evening meal would be taking the piss IMO.

I was talking about evening meal. Spoke to someone at HMRC in the end, and even he wasn't sure if a lunch time claim had to coincide with around lunch time, as I had read somewhere (so there!). He checked with his colleagues, and finally said I could buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner together, in the morning, and still claim for them separately. And it's fine to claim for an evening meal. They set the rule, that if you're out for more than 10 hours, you can claim, so they will stick to that. I think it would only be taking the piss if I was actually getting my client to pay for these things, as I originally thought.

You live and learn. Then you know everything.

[mudskipper]

You've stumbled upon one of my pet peeves. Tea is a caffeinated drink, made from tea leaves, of all things. Don't let me hear anybody calling lunch dinner, or...

So to be clear, were you talking about midday or evening meal? Evening meal would be taking the piss IMO.

[SimonMac]

I wonder if the OP is now wishing he didn't have a dozen oysters, lobster thermidor and a bottle of champagne for lunch every day for the last month?

Its ok, British Oyster season would have finished by the start of September so its fine

[half]

I suppose I'm just fed up of explaining the same thing over and over again. Also, you posted this in General, not Accounting/Legal so it's fair game.

Have a read of this thread. It's about expenses through a Ltd company but the key point is the same - there is no free money, who do you think is reimbursing the expense? Unless you have an explicit agreement with a client about expenses, it's not going to be them, it'll be you, therefore all you're saving is the tax.

That's what I didn't get. From what I'd been told, it sounded like someone would be reimbursing me, and that maybe that was just normal in contracting. Anyway, been there, done that as well, but thanks for the explanation and the link!

[half]

Have a look here - this will explain it all for you EIM05231 - Employment income: scale rate expenses: subsistence expenses: table of benchmark scale rates

Actually, as this is an HMRC link it probably won't explain very much at all but I can provide a translation if necessary

Thank you. Been there, done that... just had the umbrella company's blurb in my head, confusing things.

[half]

Yes, we do know how it's done. It's a bit confusing at first.

Normally an employer will reimburse your expenses on top of your wages but that is not the case here. Don't think of the umbrella as your "employer" because they aren't - you are actually self employed and all the umbrella does is run a payroll for you.

So, let's say you earn £1000 per week and your net pay after tax deductions is £500.

Now let's say you incur £100 in expenses (meals, travel, etc) for that week.

If the expenses are allowed then you get that part of your income tax free so you pay tax on £1000 - £100 = £900. So the total tax due is £450 and your net pay is £1000 - £450 = £550 so you are £50 better off.

The trick is that you probably would have incurred those same expenses working in a permie job anyway so you are a bit better off as self-employed because you can claim them as a tax free income.

Thank you! Despite all the reading I'd done about it, it just didn't click. I eventually figured out that my reply, as mad as it sounded at first, was actually correct. Thanks for the detailed explanation!

[half]

Dinner?? Or lunch? Make yourself clear man.. There's a big difference.

I suspect you're one of these common types who has dinner at lunchtime and tea at dinner time...

You've stumbled upon one of my pet peeves. Tea is a caffeinated drink, made from tea leaves, of all things. Don't let me hear anybody calling lunch dinner, or...