Reply to: Slave reparations - right or wrong?

[vetran]

I doubt they would do little with the money other than oppress their population more.

[original PM]

This will turn into yet another unanswerable and pointless 'does god exist' and 'is all religion bad' bunfight. You can't help yourselves.

Meanwhile most of the Carribean is on tenterhooks waiting for CUK to announce it's decision on reparations. What's it to be?

No

No nation should be paying for the actions of it's forefathers 300 odd years ago

[Doggy Styles]

This will turn into yet another unanswerable and pointless 'does god exist' and 'is all religion bad' bunfight. You can't help yourselves.

Meanwhile most of the Carribean is on tenterhooks waiting for CUK to announce it's decision on reparations. What's it to be?

[vetran]

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him

Voltaire of course was way ahead of us.

Voltaire, Epître sur Les Trois Imposteurs

In its original form, the statement first appeared in a verse epistle from 1768, addressed to the anonymous author of a controversial work, The Three Impostors. According to Voltaire, this was a virulently atheistic text that denied the existence of a divine being. He found that this was an extremely dangerous work since it put into question a notion that was very useful for society: the idea that criminals would be punished in the afterlife. Thus, even when policing was insufficient, there was a strong deterrent against crime.

In this poem, Voltaire develops in a general way the idea that the existence of God (or the belief therein) helps establish social order. He then goes on to boast of his own role in eliminating prejudice and injustice in the eighteenth century. In its final sections, the poem turns to personal satire, as Voltaire attacks some of his favorite enemies.

[DodgyAgent]

So you are saying it is nothing to do with religion.

Religion has its influence but it is mainly a controlling force and not enough of a civilising one. In its benign form it has helped educate and indeed civilise people however it has then stepped beyond its boundaries by becoming a force for exploitation, abuse and control. Many in the civilised world may attach themselves to a religion but thanks to science and education no longer need the "prop" that religion offers. Let's face it religion thrives on fear and an absence of understanding and unless god shows up to a few functions and performs a few miracles he (assuming he is indeed a "he") is dead in the water.

[vetran]

So you are saying it is nothing to do with religion.

In fact I'm perfectly willing to agree that the low incidence of infection in Poland is partially down to Catholicism.

As you say abstinence reduces risk to near zero. However if you have a society where abstinence is not ingrained other solutions are needed.

[minestrone]

Poland is an educated country that has developed a sense of responsibility that is absent from African countries and communities. Just because the statistics show that Poland has a very low incidence of Aids does not owe itself to Roman Catholicism. Catholicism may be a component of the civilised society but it is equally culpable of being a component of the ills of society (licensed paedophilia being one). Fortunately most civilised societies are above the generally malign influences of religion.

So you are saying it is nothing to do with religion.

[DodgyAgent]

America for one certainly isn't

As a whole it is. In parts it is not.

[amcdonald]

Fortunately most civilised societies are above the generally malign influences of religion.

America for one certainly isn't

[DodgyAgent]

SA has an AIDS epidemic because of people like Jacob Zuma, multiple wifes, seems to shag anything in his distance and is on record saying that showering after sex stops you getting AIDS. That is the level of stupidity of their main man who is in charge of sorting this out. That is modern day 'let them eat cake moment'. Poland with it's 95% Catholic population has next to no AIDS problem but SA with its 6% Catholic population has big problems yet you are sure the problem has a lot to do with the Catholic church.

This argument has no basis on science yet is popularised by left wingers and militant homosexuals, I think Tonybee used to peddle this line quite a bit. It is a backlash at the comments that AIDS was Gods wrath I think, practicing Catholics have just about the lowest infection rates and if condoms and health education are so good at stopping AIDS why is the spread of the disease still a massive problem in western gay communities?

The problem is that your ideas are just so fookin stupid that any attempt at a discussion with you has to bring up your level of intelligence. Time and time again you ignore evidence compiled by experts that is almost university adopted to go with a few pages from the internet and a few hunches.

"I know I don't know much on this subject or what the evidence says, I know I am right and here is a web page that proves it" seems to be common in your posts. You have tried to make it a running joke out of posting tulipe mail links every day but really it reminds us that is really all you have got, a superficial mind that uses the slimmest of evidence to form fact.

Poland is an educated country that has developed a sense of responsibility that is absent from African countries and communities. Just because the statistics show that Poland has a very low incidence of Aids does not owe itself to Roman Catholicism. Catholicism may be a component of the civilised society but it is equally culpable of being a component of the ills of society (licensed paedophilia being one). Fortunately most civilised societies are above the generally malign influences of religion.

[minestrone]

The Catholic Church advocates sexual responsibility for its followers as a method to reduce the chances of AIDS, if you agree or not with that message it certainly works with Catholics having just about the lowest rates of HIV infection. The catholic church also is by far the biggest donor of care to AIDS patients worldwide and invest massive amounts in treatment. To take out one single part of that philosophy towards the disease and blame it for the a greater spread is wrong. Condoms fail and AIDS still spreads in AIDS aware communities where condoms are readily available and it spreads much more aggressively than in Catholic communities. Those facts are pretty hard to argue against.

Anyway, I have work to do.

[Paddy]

When slavery was abolished in the British Empire (1830?), slave owners were compensated by the government ie: tax payers. Banks such a Barclays gained from slavery and gained when it was abolished. Slaves were not compensated nor were working people and tax payers.
If there is a case to answer, then it should be made against those companies who had slaves; not the UK government and tax paying workers.

[vetran]

What? Read something in the mail and believe it?

You are still adamant that MMR is not safe, causes autism and you are waiting on the killer evidence to prove it, that is basically what you have said. You have admitted that the science just now says it is safe but any day now the science is going to be proven wrong and a link to autism is real. So really you don't have the science to prove it you just have your beliefs and that is good for you.

When it gets to that level any discussion that follows has a certain level of unsurpassed stupidity involved and we see that time and again with yourself.

no I said the way it was dealt with looked suspicious and panicked.

I'm not sure how you can say without ANY doubt a new vaccine is SAFE. I would suggest all common Vaccines are LOW RISK and MMR now probably falls into this category.

However slamming a door to the research and forcing a whole country onto MMR because it was CHEAPER was not the way to handle it.

As I said I suspect a small number of recipients may suffer side effects, this may be Autism, a disease that has seen a rise in recent years.

Your Black/White beliefs are admirable, If only I had so much certainty that I was right about such things when we have so little grasp of the wonders of the human body.

[minestrone]

I can prove my beliefs or change them according to available information. Can you?

What? Read something in the mail and believe it?

You are still adamant that MMR is not safe, causes autism and you are waiting on the killer evidence to prove it, that is basically what you have said. You have admitted that the science just now says it is safe but any day now the science is going to be proven wrong and a link to autism is real. So really you don't have the science to prove it you just have your beliefs and that is good for you.

When it gets to that level any discussion that follows has a certain level of unsurpassed stupidity involved and we see that time and again with yourself.

[vetran]

Minestrone I have said again & again that the church is a force for good mainly. Now in one particular area I believed that the Catholic church organisation could do better. Where AIDs is a big problem they could encourage the use of condoms using their unique position and coverage in the region.

I never said it was a massive part of the problem, but that it could be a big part of the solution. In my opinion if it only saves one life its the Christian thing to do. You can believe that I think the Catholics are wholly responsible for the spread of HIV if you want, its not what I said.

Obituary: Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo | World news | The Guardian

In a BBC documentary in 2003, he sensationally claimed that the HIV virus which causes Aids could actually pass through tiny holes in the rubber of condoms. Hitherto, the Catholic church had argued that condoms were immoral because they break the link between sex and procreation. López Trujillo was adding an entirely new objection - that condoms did not work.

His remarks were seized upon internationally and ridiculed by eminent scientists as well as the World Health Organisation, which pointed out that, while 20 million people had died of Aids, condoms had been shown to be 90% effective in stopping the transmission of infection, with failures down to users' carelessness.

BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Shock at archbishop condom claim


There are many factors in the spread of disease though the most powerful prevention tends to come from giving the potential victims the knowledge and support needed to avoid infection.

Zuma is a product of a poor education and advice, he is the best we have unfortunately. At least on the whole they have stopped shooting each other. But he will pay attention to the church and other advisers if they grow his popularity.

Having to substantiate your unproven belief by virulently attacking anyone who disagrees with you seems like an act of desperation.

I can prove my beliefs or change them according to available information. Can you?

Now were I to sink to SASGuru levels of debate I would be personally offensive to you now.