Reply to: Tony Blair : there is a state of war between arabs and the west

[Fungus]

I suspect that ultimately Israel will win in the sense that it achieves its aims, namely disarmament of Hezbollah. Israelis don't give a hoot about the loss of life in Lebanon. Why do they care about that? What's a 1000 civilians to them. They characterise them all as terrorists and will just continue their paranoid rant about their existence being at stake. The peace plan will disarm Hezbollah. So Israel will have achieved its aims with minimal loss of life on their side. They will retain the support of America. In fact America will be chuffed that Israel forced Hezbollah to disarm.

The Israeli public will be chuffed to bits that they won, and some time in the future we will again see another Israeli 'defensive attack' lead to huge numbers of deaths because they see that Israeli brutality gets them what they want.

Curious. I would have thought that Israel would have cornered the market in doctors, dentists and lawyers with a good line in chicken soup and Matzos. Oh well.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Aye BTC

Whilst there is no arguing the latter, I'm not sure if is accurate to say the Lebanese people were 'against' Hezbollah before. Fungus describes a few examples employed by Hezbollah to minimise any criticism surrounding their re-occupation of southern Lebanon.

The point I was making is that giving Hizbollah are in essence a Shia millita group with some representaion inside the Lebanese parliament.

Many non Shias in Lebanon from the Christians to the Sunni Muslims did not support them,those are the groups who have now decided increasingly to support Hizbollah.

[BobTheCrate]

currently the Lebenase people who were formerly against Hezbollah are now supporting them.

Whilst there is no arguing the latter, I'm not sure if is accurate to say the Lebanese people were 'against' Hezbollah before. Fungus describes a few examples employed by Hezbollah to minimise any criticism surrounding their re-occupation of southern Lebanon.

...but the question is who is really winning...Israel ??

If Israel are winning they're certainly keeping bloody quiet about it. From afar it does seem they're not having much impact on Hezbollah.

We're being told Israel's plan is to create a buffer zone which they then want UN forces to police. The question I suppose is, will Hezbollah resist that ? Somehow I suspect they will & the UN after the first few skirmishes, subsequently shy away.

[BlasterBates]

...but the question is who is really winning...Israel ??

I'm not so sure, once Israel has bombed Lebanon into the dark ages, which they've almost done, what do they do then ? drive around the Lebanese countryside as "easy targets", just like the US military in Iraq.

I suspect Hizbollah will keep raining missiles into Israel, and I suspect Israel will get bogged down in Lebanon.

[BobTheCrate]

Maybe, the Lebanese & French delude themselves they were responsible for intimidating Syria out of Lebanon. Perhaps Syria actually left feeling quite comfortable about doing so because they'd already fortified the Hezbollah ranks ?

I'm sure the Syrians do want the Golan heights again. But until such time as Syria agrees to a 2 state solution, I don't see Israel giving them back.

Have you not considered that it was only due to Hezbollahs resistance that Israel had to leave the Lebanon after 15 years of invasion ?

It may well have been a factor. As I understand it both Israel & Hezbollah agreed to both leave Lebanon under some accord, possibly a UN res. There was an agreement though.

As we know, Hezbollah later re-occupied southern Lebanon again.

[AlfredJPruffock]

To be honest i dont know.

The Lebanese state is too weak militarily to remove Hezbollah. Syria uses them as a thrid party to retain influence in Lebanon and put continuing pressure on Isreal. The Syrian's would love to get back the Golan Heights one day

Have you not considered that it was only due to Hezbollahs resistance that Israel had to leave the Lebanon after 15 years of invasion ?

Just might be a small factor in the equation.

Whatever, currently the Lebenase people who were formerly against Hezbollah are now supporting them.

And all this in a democracy ...

Another Fine Mess...

[Hart-floot]

I don't necessarily dispute that Hart-floot but it begs the question :

So why couldn't the French & the Lebanese people 'put alot' of pressure on Hezbollah to leave Lebanon as well ? Remembering that Syria provides alot of support for Hezbollah.

To be honest i dont know.

The Lebanese state is too weak militarily to remove Hezbollah. Syria uses them as a thrid party to retain influence in Lebanon and put continuing pressure on Isreal. The Syrian's would love to get back the Golan Heights one day

[Fungus]

I don't necessarily dispute that Hart-floot but it begs the question :

So why couldn't the French & the Lebanese people 'put alot' of pressure on Hezbollah to leave Lebanon as well ? Remembering that Syria provides alot of support for Hezbollah.

Probably because some see Hezbollah as a force for good. Whilst Israel would like us to see them as a terrorist group, they got the credit for ending the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon, and they also set up schools, hospitals, and created jobs in a country devastated by a civil war and an Israeli occupation. I happen to think they should leave, but Lebanon seemed to be taking steps in the right direction to reduce Syrian influence.

[BobTheCrate]

I don't necessarily dispute that Hart-floot but it begs the question :

So why couldn't the French & the Lebanese people 'put alot' of pressure on Hezbollah to leave Lebanon as well ? Remembering that Syria provides alot of support for Hezbollah.

[Hart-floot]

Helios,

What puzzles me though and no one has been able to explain, is that 'someone' was able to intimidate Syrian troops out of Lebanon only a short time ago.

It was the French & the Lebanese people, that put alot of pressure on Syria to leave Lebanon after the assasination of the Lebanese oppoosition leader.

Unlike our Poodle relationship with Bush, those "cheese eating surrender monkeys" still have influence in some parts of the world.

[BobTheCrate]

Helios,

It wasn't the Lebanese who attacked Israel, it was and is Hezbollah, backed by Syria & Iran. So it is not correct to blame the Lebanese.

It seems broadly accepted that the Lebanese authorities did not have the means to kick Hezbollah out of their country.

What puzzles me though and no one has been able to explain, is that 'someone' was able to intimidate Syrian troops out of Lebanon only a short time ago. Presumably Hezbollah didn't 'cos Hezbollah partly relies upon Syria. If it were the Lebanese themselves it is harder to understand how they couldn't have done the same with Hezbollah.

[Helios]

Why make a post about him? He is not important. While the skirmish is interesting. I wonder who will raise the flag in the enemy capitol.

[wendigo100]

WTF does that have anything to do with what is going on.

Simple. Lebanon attacked. Isreal reataliated = War

Did anyone start protesting when Britain bombed the sh*t out of Germany during ww2? No, Germany started the violence so they had to suffer it. Same with lebanon and isreal. Lebanon just has to suffer the for its aggressive actions.

By the way what does tony blair have to do with this?

Er, this thread was originally about what Tony Blair said, not about Lebanon.

HTH

[Helios]

Not far from the truth? I disagree. The truth is that it is between the muslims and the west. For a start, as I understand it Iranians aren't arabs, and they are the worst of the lot.

Blair is a mealy-mouthed g1t. Never assume that he is telling the truth.

WTF does that have anything to do with what is going on.

Simple. Lebanon attacked. Isreal reataliated = War

Did anyone start protesting when Britain bombed the sh*t out of Germany during ww2? No, Germany started the violence so they had to suffer it. Same with lebanon and isreal. Lebanon just has to suffer the for its aggressive actions.

By the way what does tony blair have to do with this?

[scotspine]

well to be sure, we're not short of bigots up here. i have been assaulted, afaicr, twice, both times in england, but nothing serious, i gave as good as i got and no occaision was a result of my being scottish. i did 'suffer' a constant drip of comments but reckon that it was never at any time to be taken seriously, but rather with a pinch of such humour as i could find.

i'm sure that at times, we can seem a little caustic to visitors but remember that we, historically, have been on the back foot and if it serves to rankle, also remember that you are beginning to see the stirrings of similar sentiment in england against incomers who to all intents and purposes appear to represent an unstoppable tide which threatens to engulf your culture.

i underwrite all this with an agreement to your final statement. the uk is not particularly large and it would serve us well to cooperate.