Reply to: The Defeatist Treehugger Blair

[white-anglo-reactionary]

Operation a success; cancer removed, patient dead...

Israel has created a power-vacuum in Lebanon which Hizbollah will fill. This is exactly what they did in Palestine, by destroying the symbols of Palestinian government, creating a power vacuum that Hamas filled. Once again, the limits of military power are clear to all.

[Fungus]

That Rabbi Burns must have been permanently pissed/stoned. Thank god edukashun standards are improving.

[AlfredJPruffock]

The point which seems to elude Chico is that this War is in fact strengthening Hizbollah, just as Iran benefited from the Iraq War.

But dont take my word for it heres a thought provoking article from
Nehemia Shtrasler for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz...

PS And Chico, for the record I do not support Hizbollah,Hamas or even Ham and Eggs for that matter, I support only Hamilton Accademicals.



There was one moment during the war when we had the upper hand. It was the moment when Israel had succeeded in striking Hizbullah with strong and surprising force, Haifa was peaceful and the number of casualties was small. That was the right moment to stop the war, declare victory and move on to the diplomatic track.

This opportunity came when the G8 convened in St Petersburg on July 14, two days after the fighting broke out. The G8 formulated a four-point plan, and nothing could have been better for Israel. According to that plan, the three Israeli soldiers abducted to Gaza and Lebanon would be returned unharmed, the Katyusha rocket fire against Israel would stop, Israel would halt its military operations and pull back its forces, and it would also release the Hamas ministers and MPs.

The G8 statement declared that the full responsibility for the crisis fell on Hamas and Hizbullah and asked the United Nations security council immediately to formulate a programme for the full implementation of resolution 1559. The statement called for the deployment of the Lebanese army in south Lebanon and suggested looking into the possibility of bringing an international force into the region. Israel and Lebanon were also asked to launch diplomatic talks.

The international atmosphere was also pro-Israel, even among the hostile media. Israel received international legitimacy for its response to the killing and abduction of its soldiers inside its sovereign territory, and all the politicians, especially Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, were amazed at how much the world loved us.

But Olmert and Amir Peretz, the defence minister, did not know when to quit. They wanted to show the public that they, the "civilians", were more courageous than their predecessors, Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon. That is why they continued the war in order to attain goals that from the outset were unattainable.

This does not mean that if Israel had adopted the G8 proposal, the problem of Hizbullah would have been resolved. That would not have happened. That can only be resolved at the diplomatic level, with an Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese agreement. But at least it would have prevented us from deteriorating to the current situation, with its accompanying feeling of failure, the dead and the wounded, the attack on Israel's moral standing, the hatred towards it throughout the world and the damage to Israel's military deterrence.

Israel has not managed to crush Hizbullah and, worse, it has strengthened Hizbullah's standing in Lebanon and the Arab world, which are seeing how a tiny guerrilla organisation has succeeded in standing up to the mighty Israel defence forces and causing Israel serious losses among its civilian population. That is a dangerous precedent.

The Olmert-Peretz plan was to shell and demolish south Lebanon and south Beirut until the Lebanese public demand that its government vomit Hizbullah out from its midst. It appears that, like a number of other Israeli leaders, they did not understand how much killing, poverty and distress people are willing to take, as long as their honour is not harmed, as long as they are not humiliated. And indeed, instead of demanding that Hizbullah be dismantled, the people of Lebanon want revenge, and they want it now. That is their response to the killing of 750 civilians and the destruction of thousands of homes, bridges, roads, villages and towns, setting Lebanon back by 20 years.

Now, after the tragic events in Qana that killed some 60 civilians, even Israel's greatest ally has changed direction and says it wants a speedy ceasefire. Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has declared that Hizbullah's victory is the victory of the entire Lebanese people and that if Israel remains in south Lebanon, he will turn the Lebanese army against it. Siniora even spoke about a ceasefire without any agreement.

Other Lebanese, too - including some who are firm opponents of Hizbullah, such as Walid Jumblatt and Amin Gemayel - have also condemned Israel. Based on what has happened in the field, nothing remains of the grandiose goals of the beginning of the war.

Soon we will start to long for the excellent agreement offered by the G8 at the beginning of the war.

[xoggoth]

I agree Chico. There are fundamental problems with Islam which you will not find in Christianity, not least in the texts that they consider sacred. Despite all the protestation of tolerance by its adherents, the reality of Islamic laws round the world tells a different story.

Too many think that just because most Muslims, like any other group of people, are perfectly decent people there is no real problem that cannot be addressed by solving a few greivances. This ignores the reality that basic decency of the majority has never stopped extremist views taking hold throughout history.

If the Palestine question could somehow be solved the problem would still exist and ultimately we need to resist it. That is not to say however, that we should be exacerbating the problem by totally pointless wars, blind defence of injustices by Israel and trying to dicate other people's societies.

[wendigo100]

Why do you think that Hizbollah and Hamas dont get on terribly well with Israel,and vice versa? do you think anything could be done on the diplomatic front?

Hizbollah and Hamas are nothing without the bogey man Israel. For Hizbollah and Hamas, making lasting peace with Israel would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Whenever things have been quiet for a while, they'll fire a few more rockets over the border, or perhaps kidnap someone else.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Alf it seems you fall into the camp of those who in the so called peace lovers who naively believe that the Hizbollahs and Hamas' of this world desperately want to live along side Israel in peace if only they were given the chance! The truth is they were both established on an avowed Islamist mission to wipe out the Jewish race. As any good Muslim will tell you, Islam permits you to lie in order to achieve jihad. So if a so called peace treaty or ceasefire ensures you have time to secretly rebuild and give Israel false sense of security then so be it!!

Why do you think that Hizbollah and Hamas dont get on terribly well with Israel,and vice versa,do you think anything could be done on the diplomatic front?

Or would this spoil the Rapture Ready planning?

[AlfredJPruffock]

Yes fair hair and the Fair Fortnight.

Back on thread, I see that our Great Leaders are considering changing their holiday plans whilst the Middle East burns, how very valiant of them , altough they say considering delaying ,not actually changing anything just yet ...


TONY Blair is considering delaying his holiday to remain in charge of Britain's response to the Middle East crisis, effectively signalling his lack of confidence in the Foreign Office.

The disclosure came amid rising tensions within the government over what angry Labour MPs and frustrated British diplomats alike now regard as the Prime Minister's personal foreign policy.

Mr Blair is understood to have directly rejected advice last week from Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, that Britain should call for an immediate ceasefire along the Israel-Lebanon border.

Downing Street also insisted that US military supplies to Israel should continue to pass through British airports.

Last night it was reported Ms Beckett is also considering delaying her holiday.

Well if you must know I am also considering delaying my holidays.

So there.

[Dundeegeorge]

Fair fa' your honest sonsie face

Robert Burns

Fair fa' your honest, sonsie face,
Great chieftain o the puddin'-race!
Aboon them a' ye tak your place,
Painch, tripe, or thairm:
Weel are ye wordy of a grace
As lang's my arm.

The groaning trencher there ye fill,
Your hurdies like a distant hill,
Your pin wad help to mend a mill
In time o need,
While thro your pores the dews distil
Like amber bead.

His knife see rustic Labour dight,
An cut you up wi ready slight,
Trenching your gushing entrails bright,
Like onie ditch;
And then, O what a glorious sight,
Warm-reekin, rich!

Then, horn for horn, they stretch an strive:
Deil tak the hindmost, on they drive,
Till a' their weel-swall'd kytes belyve
Are bent like drums;
The auld Guidman, maist like to rive,
'Bethankit' hums.

Is there that owre his French ragout,
Or olio that wad staw a sow,
Or fricassee wad mak her spew
Wi perfect sconner,
Looks down wi sneering, scornfu view
On sic a dinner?

Poor devil! see him owre his trash,
As feckless as a wither'd rash,
His spindle shank a guid whip-lash,
His nieve a nit:
Thro bloody flood or field to dash,
O how unfit!

But mark the Rustic, haggis-fed,
The trembling earth resounds his tread,
Clap in his walie nieve a blade,
He'll make it whissle;
An legs an arms, an heads will sned,
Like taps o thrissle.

Ye Pow'rs, wha mak mankind your care,
And dish them out their bill o fare,
Auld Scotland wants nae skinking ware
That jaups in luggies:
But, if ye wish her gratefu prayer,
Gie her a Haggis!


And you'd better get used it. I understand that Scottish poetry will be a requirement for English literature exams, that and the Baghavad Gita.
Mwahahahaha

You're going to reap just what you sow (Lou Reed)

[Chico]

Alf it seems you fall into the camp of those who in the so called peace lovers who naively believe that the Hizbollahs and Hamas' of this world desperately want to live along side Israel in peace if only they were given the chance! The truth is they were both established on an avowed Islamist mission to wipe out the Jewish race. As any good Muslim will tell you, Islam permits you to lie in order to achieve jihad. So if a so called peace treaty or ceasefire ensures you have time to secretly rebuild and give Israel false sense of security then so be it!!

[Fungus]

Fair hair.

One of the characteristics of the Nordic peoples.

[AtW]

nonsense

[PRC1964]

He who is ridden by a conscience
Worries about a lot of nonscience;
He without benefit of scruples
His fun and income soon quadruples.

[ratewhore]

fair fecks sake - what will he come out with next? He's only setting himself up for his next job anyway...

[AtW]

Fair play - one of the characteristics of the British people.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Has he ever made a speach without the word 'fair' in it?

Fair enough.