Reply to: If the Syrian rebels really want help...

[Mich the Tester]

People forget that there were dictators in Europe until quite recently

I disagree. I think most people never even knew about dictators in Europe and probably didn't care.

[sasguru]

Europeans elected a goon who then built a large war machine. I don't have any reason to believe that Europeans won't do that again. I don't think the Germans will, but perhaps some of the people who are suffering most from the economic situation would; a nationalist or military strongman could come to power in Greece or Spain, though perhaps less likely in Italy. A military goon in Athens who picks fights with Turkey and/or Macedonia could get the whole balkan region up in flames again and force the rest of Europe to take sides. A similar goon in Spain, whose democratic history is not very long, could pick fights with Britain, Morrocco, side with Argentina etc. All seems peaceful now, but chuck mass unemployment and a decimated middle class into the mix and it can go wrong very quickly.

People forget that there were dictators in Europe until quite recently - Franco was only removed in 1975. There was Salazar in Portugal and the junta of Greek colonels who were murdering students in the 70s.
Democracy is a new concept for quite a few Europeans.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

... then why not convert to Christianity? Muslims, particularly arabs, only want to fight and only seem to be happy with a brutal dictator who can suppress democracy.

Much like Africa really.

Christianity is the way forward for peace.

So WWII was because of Islam? Hitler was a Muslim was he?

[bobspud]

Well eventually NATO stepped in, after the UN spent a long time hanging around watching.

Well actually they stood around to make sure that the majority of refugees got slaughtered so that they would not flood the borders then called it a humanitarian crisis and stepped in.

[Paddy]

Europeans elected a goon who then built a large war machine. I don't have any reason to believe that Europeans won't do that again. I don't think the Germans will, but perhaps some of the people who are suffering most from the economic situation would; a nationalist or military strongman could come to power in Greece or Spain, though perhaps less likely in Italy. A military goon in Athens who picks fights with Turkey and/or Macedonia could get the whole balkan region up in flames again and force the rest of Europe to take sides. A similar goon in Spain, whose democratic history is not very long, could pick fights with Britain, Morrocco, side with Argentina etc. All seems peaceful now, but chuck mass unemployment and a decimated middle class into the mix and it can go wrong very quickly.

Greek austerity causes left wing extremists to storm Greek Parliament.
Right wing military sponsored by the banks take control and take over Macedonia.
Greek Cypriots unite with Greece and the new super Greece state drops out of Euro.
Germany wants gold as compensation for Euro loans but Greece refuses.
Germany sponsors Turkey to invade South Cyprus.
Russian money in Cyprus at risk and Russia moves into to Northern Turkey.
Euro collapses and Spain takes over Gibraltar.

[original PM]

fair points...

I think the problem is though - damned if you do, damned if you do not.

And this is what is being played on - we cannot stand by and let innocent's be killed yet we cannot intervene as we will be seen to be taking sides

I think the best thing though is to not intervene - let nature run it's course and see where we end up..

[Mich the Tester]

You don't think the 2nd world war was, in effect, a European civil war?
One that without US help would have left Europe impoverished for years?
And I'm not sure what your point is about "the goon with a large war machine" is? Surely that proves my point that Europeans are not necessarily wiser than Middle-Easterners?

Europeans elected a goon who then built a large war machine. I don't have any reason to believe that Europeans won't do that again. I don't think the Germans will, but perhaps some of the people who are suffering most from the economic situation would; a nationalist or military strongman could come to power in Greece or Spain, though perhaps less likely in Italy. A military goon in Athens who picks fights with Turkey and/or Macedonia could get the whole balkan region up in flames again and force the rest of Europe to take sides. A similar goon in Spain, whose democratic history is not very long, could pick fights with Britain, Morrocco, side with Argentina etc. All seems peaceful now, but chuck mass unemployment and a decimated middle class into the mix and it can go wrong very quickly.

[sasguru]

hmm but that was because we were faced with a very real threat from a complete goon with a large war machine.

when was the last European Civil war?

You don't think the 2nd world war was, in effect, a European civil war?
One that without US help would have left Europe impoverished for years?
And I'm not sure what your point is about "the goon with a large war machine" is? Surely that proves my point that Europeans are not necessarily wiser than Middle-Easterners?

[Mich the Tester]

and what did 'we' do about that?

Well eventually NATO stepped in, after the UN spent a long time hanging around watching.

[original PM]

and what did 'we' do about that?

[Mich the Tester]

was that a civil war or ethnic cleansing?

Both.

[original PM]

was that a civil war or ethnic cleansing?

[doodab]

Its not that simple and linear. There were at least 2 points when the Middle Eastern countries were at the top of the world: (1) at the dawn of civilisation and (2) during the golden age of Islam: algebra, algorithm and alcohol are words taken from Arabic.
And given the current lack of understanding and respect for science and technology in the West, the understanding and exploitation of which made us dominant, I predict that Western dominance will be short-lived in historical terms.

The Iranians pursue scientific & technological advance very aggressively, because the leadership believes that a lack of scientific progress leaves them open to bullying by more developed countries. They certainly aren't backwards, and in some areas of medicine & bio tech they are world class, as well as having an indigenous arms & aerospace industry that can produce satellites, drones and other fairly advanced stuff.

It's an interesting place Iran, and a lot more complex than it's usually portrayed in our media.

[Mich the Tester]

[
when was the last European Civil war?

1991 to 2001, former Yugoslavia.

[original PM]

[QUOTE=sasguru;1799934]Its not that simple and linear. There were at least 2 points when the Middle Eastern countries were at the top of the world: (1) at the dawn of civilisation and (2) during the golden age of Islam: algebra, algorithm and alcohol are words taken from Arabic.
And given the current lack of understanding and respect for science and technology in the West, the understanding and exploitation of which made us dominant, I predict that Western dominance will be short-lived in historical terms.

Also the West is not particularly wiser than the Middle East. It's within living memory that we tore ourselves apart in a European war which makes what's happening in Syria and Egypt look like a walk in the park by comparison.[/QUOTE]

hmm but that was because we were faced with a very real threat from a complete goon with a large war machine.

when was the last European Civil war?