Reply to: Really very serious charges for Menezes officers

[NickIT]

Also it was not only the WTC that were hit.

[hattra]

[QUOTE=DaveB]There is a widely held school of thought that the World Trade center attacks came about as a response to American foriegn policy in the Middle East. In particular the Palestine issue, American attempts to excert influence over the Middle East political arena, Americas support of Israel and the American sponsored invasion of Afganistan.
QUOTE]

Sorry - probably just a slip on your part, but quite a lot of people seem to be making this mistake these days - the invasion of Afghanistan came AFTER and BECAUSE OF the attack on the World Trade Centre, to depose the Taliban, who had allowed Al Qaeda to set up training bases in their country. Al Qaeda were originally motivated by a desire to remove "unbelievers" from the Islamic Holy Land of Saudi Arabia (i.e. mainly US troops who were stationed there before, during and after the First Iraq War, which was fought, as I recall, in order to liberate a Muslim state following it's invasion by another Mulsim state (and, of course, to stop Saddam Hussein getting his hands on Kuwaiti (& then later Saudi and Qatari) oil).

[BobTheCrate]

Oh, can I throw my own sweeping generalisation in here too?

You don't normally ask permission to throw in sweeping generalisations.

It's all you ever do.

When it comes to sweeping generalisations mailman, you're the Queen.

[Mailman]

Let’s just face it. The police force is in a total shambles and most of the police are incompetent

Oh, can I throw my own sweeping generalisation in here too? Most Muslims are terrorists!

There, that should appease the PC morons out there!

Mailman

[Clog II The Avenger]

Let’s just face it. The police force is in a total shambles and most of the police are incompetent and led by officials who couldn’t run tea shop never mind a police force.

They are aware of their own incompetence that is why whenever there is a crime they will arrest any convenient suspect. They want to be seen to be doing something positive. How many times do we hear on the news that such an such a person has been arrested for a high profile crime and then a few days later he is quietly released.

The same happened with the killing of Menendez. The Police and MI5 had blundered leading up the 7/7. They were under pressure to make good their incompetence.

Police incompetence leads to:

Real criminals getting away with crimes.
Innocent people being arrested, convicted and killed.
Tax payers money being put into a black hole.


I know a number of small businesses who have suffered from shop lifters. What happens when they call the police? They get told to come into the police station a make a statement.

What happens at Tesco’s , one call to the police and the will be a police car around in minutes.

Police killings/murder, not the first time. Remember the man with the table leg? The man who’s neighbour was a known crook and the police shot at the wrong car, dragged the driver out, shot him again and then bludgeoned him. If these things had happened in Cuba or China the government would have no end of criticism.

[BobTheCrate]

Bogeyman had just said

They (frontline coppers) are pushed and pulled from all directions, get little or no thanks for putting their safety on the line everyday, and are hated by a fairly large section of our wonderful population.

to which mailman concludes ...

They are in a no win situation with people like yourself.

Doh !

[Mailman]

Of course bogeyman if we just let the police get on with being police (ie. arresting blacks for being in areas they shouldnt be or arresting all muslims because they are potential terrorists) then we would get morons like yourself going on about the PC still not doing their job properly

They are in a no win situation with people like yourself.

Mailman

[BobTheCrate]

Pretty hard to get a witness statement BEFORE the police shot the illegal immegrant innit?

The reason I specifically put (or Before)was for your benefit & no one elses.

Because it is you who relies on Police justification for further suspecting Menezes on those mistaken witness statements.

And no, the witness statements Im talking about were those collected by the BBC...not the police.

Yea right I bet [not] you were. Makes no difference though. The Police knew those statements were incorrect but did not attempt to correct the mistakes until challenged. They preferred to let those statements stand even though they knew them to be wrong. You also seem to conveniently ignore the witness statements the Police did take.

I notice you avoid even attempting to explain why the Police lied so much.

[bogeyman]

I maintain my belief our Police are still, just about, 2nd to none in the world.

But I believe their standards have been slipping for quite a while owing to political interference at every level.

As with so many of our public services, despite the rhetoric, the frontline are considered pawns by the all powerful management hierarchy.

Consultants, advisors, HR, Admin, all manner of useless f****** steering committees all take precedent over those who basically deliver.

Sir Ian Blair goes a long way toward personifying much of what is going wrong in the Police. He's more interested in the politics than the policing in yet another public service that is being subjected to evermore politicisation.

The result : sliding standards as sure as eggs are eggs whenever politicians run something. The powers increase as fast as the standards and integrity fall.

In a nutshell Bob!

The Police 'service' like everything else, it's being politicised and over-managed.

Top brass with their eye on the prize don't care about the day-to-day grief that the men and women on the bottom rung have to deal with.

They are pushed and pulled from all directions, get little or no thanks for putting their safety on the line everyday, and are hated by a fairly large section of our wonderful population.

Who'd be a copper? Almost as thankless as being a school teacher.

[Mailman]

Again, the witness statements you're relying upon were those taken by the Police immediately after the shooting (not before).

Pretty hard to get a witness statement BEFORE the police shot the illegal immegrant innit?

And no, the witness statements Im talking about were those collected by the BBC...not the police.

Mailman

[DaveB]

No I'm not knocking the police - the actual blokes on the ground. It's their politically motiovated Chief Constables and the policy makers that preside over the mess that I want up against the wall.

Mind you, the police (like the army) attracts certain types of gung-ho individuals with 'something to prove'. You can't deny that.

Fair point, the brass at the top are defintely suspect.

Dont agree with you about the recruiting though. They'd much rather recruit someone who has seen a bit of the world and knows how it works than a gung-ho type who wants to lay down the law.

One thing to remember is that most of the time the Police arn't there to enforce the law, although they do when needed. They are there to protect the rest of us from ourselves and the random crap that society throws at us. Road accidents, one too many in the pub and cant get home, dealing with the crap the rest of us dont want to know about.

[BobTheCrate]

I maintain my belief our Police are still, just about, 2nd to none in the world.

But I believe their standards have been slipping for quite a while owing to political interference at every level.

As with so many of our public services, despite the rhetoric, the frontline are considered pawns by the all powerful management hierarchy.

Consultants, advisors, HR, Admin, all manner of useless f****** steering committees all take precedent over those who basically deliver.

Sir Ian Blair goes a long way toward personifying much of what is going wrong in the Police. He's more interested in the politics than the policing in yet another public service that is being subjected to evermore politicisation.

The result : sliding standards as sure as eggs are eggs whenever politicians run something. The powers increase as fast as the standards and integrity fall.

[bogeyman]

Seems I'm alone in being the only one who's had good experiences with the police.

Working at a University a few years back I worked with them to catch a guy who had been assaulting students on campus. I was involved because he had been conning others into letting him use their network accounts and had been downloading pr0n, which we had spotted. One of his victims then spotted him in an IT lab up to his usual tricks and contacted me. Quick call to the local station and we had 4 officers on site in 5 minutes. Nicked the guy on the spot. I gave a statement and later appeared in court as a witness. They guy was given 12 months suspended sentance and deported.

About 12 months ago one of the local village yobs chucked a brick though one of our upstairs windows. I managed to catch the little scrote will the other half called the police. By the time I got back to the house with the little git in tow the police were already there and nicked him on the spot for criminal damage.

4 Months ago car thieves nicked the number plates of my car to use on one they had stolen elsewhere. Reported to the police, statement taken etc.

A few weeks later got a call to say they had caught the thieves and recovered the plates and that I would get them back once the prosecution had been completed.

I have no problems with the police as far as I have had anything to do with them and they certainly get my overall support. I'm not condoning the Menezes incident, far from it. But it shouldnt be taken as an accurate portrayal of the police as a whole.

No I'm not knocking the police - the actual blokes on the ground. It's their politically motiovated Chief Constables and the policy makers that preside over the mess that I want up against the wall.

Mind you, the police (like the army) attracts certain types of gung-ho individuals with 'something to prove'. You can't deny that.

[NickIT]

Seems I'm alone in being the only one who's had good experiences with the police.

Working at a University a few years back I worked with them to catch a guy who had been assaulting students on campus. I was involved because he had been conning others into letting him use their network accounts and had been downloading pr0n, which we had spotted. One of his victims then spotted him in an IT lab up to his usual tricks and contacted me. Quick call to the local station and we had 4 officers on site in 5 minutes. Nicked the guy on the spot. I gave a statement and later appeared in court as a witness. They guy was given 12 months suspended sentance and deported.

About 12 months ago one of the local village yobs chucked a brick though one of our upstairs windows. I managed to catch the little scrote will the other half called the police. By the time I got back to the house with the little git in tow the police were already there and nicked him on the spot for criminal damage.

4 Months ago car thieves nicked the number plates of my car to use on one they had stolen elsewhere. Reported to the police, statement taken etc.

A few weeks later got a call to say they had caught the thieves and recovered the plates and that I would get them back once the prosecution had been completed.

I have no problems with the police as far as I have had anything to do with them and they certainly get my overall support. I'm not condoning the Menezes incident, far from it. But it shouldnt be taken as an accurate portrayal of the police as a whole.

Some are good...some are bad.

At least you did not get the 'Community Police Support not Quite Coppers but like to Pretend' people attend your calls!

[NickIT]

Had the Americans not been "...dicking around in the Middle East.." there would have been no attack on the WTC.

There is no guarantee of that though.