Reply to: Thatcher thingy on C4 now

[lilelvis2000]

Yep. It was the concentration of power and money in London which chucked me off most.

I know London has plenty going for it, but I really do prefer lots of wide open spaces and fresh air without falling over several other million people at the same time.

Doesn't London have the worst air in Europe? I take a bottle of Lanc's air with me whenever I go.

[Sysman]

Where's your Hwyl?

Dreadful. .

linky

Will was certainly an eloquent preacher, if not a born orator, and possessed that peculiar gift known in Wales as “hwyl” — a sudden ecstatic inspiration, which carries the speaker away on its wings, supplying him with burning words of eloquence, which in his calmer and normal state he could never have chosen for himself.

I think this is why I decided I preferred proper churches rather than chapels.

At least I could admire the architecture in those, and if bored rigid could do something constructive like count the number of pieces in stained glass windows.

[Sysman]

Not living here until 2000 I do find it amusing that her greatest triumphs were

: killing the unions - Yay!
: shutting down mines - putting thousands out of work with no training or programmes to help them move on
: blowing the north sea oil money
: selling off assets which ended up mainly in the hands of foreigners
: Freeing the city of London to make loads of cash
: concentrating all power in London

All of which seems to have created a country (London) within a country. One which is prospering and the other just limps along.

Seems a mixed bag really.

Yep. It was the concentration of power and money in London which chucked me off most.

I know London has plenty going for it, but I really do prefer lots of wide open spaces and fresh air without falling over several other million people at the same time.

[DodgyAgent]

If I remember correctly we had just had our first summer holiday in a tent. .

And there was no global warming at the time to make camping enjoyable

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I think Kinnock was a gr8 Labour leader. Lets not forget it was Kinnock that reformed Labour, by the time Blair took over it had all been done. I´ll never forget that speech he made at the Labour party conference when all the leftwingers marched out in disgust. I think he would have been fine as a prime minister, not at all left wing.

Still couldn't win an election though.

True - his main problem was that he hadn't noticed that campaigning had moved on. We were in the era of propaganda and sound bites aimed at stupid people; he was trying to engage in detailed debate, whilst his opponents were producing simplified homilies likening balancing household budgets to running a nations economy, and claiming to have cut taxes and spending when the reverse was true - he never stood a chance because politicians need to appeal to the gullible, and he didn't.

In that sense I agree with

"Kinnock comes across as a right deluded numptie." - he was a good leader for Labour but that's no use if enough people in marginal seats don't vote for you.

[lilelvis2000]

Not living here until 2000 I do find it amusing that her greatest triumphs were

: killing the unions - Yay!
: shutting down mines - putting thousands out of work with no training or programmes to help them move on
: blowing the north sea oil money
: selling off assets which ended up mainly in the hands of foreigners
: Freeing the city of London to make loads of cash
: concentrating all power in London

All of which seems to have created a country (London) within a country. One which is prospering and the other just limps along.

Seems a mixed bag really.

[VectraMan]

I think Kinnock was a gr8 Labour leader. Lets not forget it was Kinnock that reformed Labour, by the time Blair took over it had all been done. I´ll never forget that speech he made at the Labour party conference when all the leftwingers marched out in disgust. I think he would have been fine as a prime minister, not at all left wing.

Still couldn't win an election though.

[Sysman]

With a childhood which included too many Welsh sermons I couldn't help but switch off when Kinnock went into Welsh Windbag mode.

[BlasterBates]

I think Kinnock was a gr8 Labour leader. Lets not forget it was Kinnock that reformed Labour, by the time Blair took over it had all been done. I´ll never forget that speech he made at the Labour party conference when all the leftwingers marched out in disgust. I think he would have been fine as a prime minister, not at all left wing.

[VectraMan]

Just like my own father did, and it might be hard to understand for those who didn't experience that first hand. The contempt he had for his siblings and peers who didn't manage to get where he did could be appalling at times, and that was a trait that I felt was present in Thatcher.

Yes, and that was kind of the point. She admired anyone who got where they were on merit, and looked down on anyone that did not - including the upper classes who did nothing but inherit family money. That's not snobbery.

Where do you rate the kind of snob that looks down on anyone that does dare better themself?

Just finished watching the documentary (worth it if you can make 4OD work). It was definitely Pro-Thatcher, but I wouldn't call it right wing. Kinnock comes across as a right deluded numptie.

[Sysman]

Yes it's very interesting. Putting it into a full historical context.
Although it is right-wing biased.

After so much left wing input over the years I found the right wing angle quite refreshing

[Sysman]

I had the opposite impression. It was the cabinet colleagues from humble backgrounds that got on best with her, John Major and Norman Tebbit. It was the etonians she had most of her fights with.

Indeed the programme made it quite clear that she had no truck with the established guard.

[Sysman]

For those who were around in 1979 I think most people at the time even the ones who didn´t vote for her breathed a huge sigh of relief when she won. Inflation was running at 17% and everyone was getting poor. Our family´s standard of living was going down pretty rapidly. If I remember correctly we had just had our first summer holiday in a tent. My father actually went out and bought some crates of whiskey, which he was going to use to barter with.

That´s what it was all about.

I got a promotion or two and pay rises during 1978-80 which helped but I still felt that by the end of each year I was back where I started.

When my mortgage leaped by 25% at the beginning of 1980 I considered myself one of the lucky few who had managed to get a 25% rise at the same time. I had to take a lodger in to help with costs.

[BlasterBates]

I had the opposite impression. It was the cabinet colleagues from humble backgrounds that got on best with her, John Major and Norman Tebbit. It was the etonians she had most of her fights with.

[Sysman]

How utterly ridiculous. She made a point of emphasising her humble origins, which is the last thing a snob would want to do.

I obviously didn't phrase that very well.

My understanding of snob in that context is of one who manages to rise from humble origins and then looks down on those they left behind.

Just like my own father did, and it might be hard to understand for those who didn't experience that first hand. The contempt he had for his siblings and peers who didn't manage to get where he did could be appalling at times, and that was a trait that I felt was present in Thatcher.

That was something I cam across in many local government types in that era and in my neck of the woods, and as we know she was brought up in that atmosphere by her father.