Reply to: Can't pay you because...

[vetran]

No the "new" system where rather than pay you on time they (various big co's) give you a note to take to the bank to borrow against your money that is being delayed. Then when you do finally get paid you can pay the interest back on the money you borrowed secured on the money you are owed...

No, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to us either!

Our blog on the subject is here - Warning a bit ranty

wow that really is incredibly stupid.

[Safe Collections]

I'll get me some of those loans and go bankrupt, ye-ha. 75% secured by government?

No the "new" system where rather than pay you on time they (various big co's) give you a note to take to the bank to borrow against your money that is being delayed. Then when you do finally get paid you can pay the interest back on the money you borrowed secured on the money you are owed...

No, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to us either!

Our blog on the subject is here - Warning a bit ranty

[vetran]

Hopefully the recast late payment legislation will redress the balance. But given the new talk of the secured finance scheme we aren't holding out much hope!

I'll get me some of those loans and go bankrupt, ye-ha. 75% secured by government?

[Safe Collections]

would be the sensible option agree, but if they are burning the VAT & Corp tax aren't they a lot of cash to miss?

since the government disconnected them and lost preferential debtor status doesn't it happen more?

Yes it does, but HMRC can and do push for investigations when they lose out and the fraudsters often don't want to appear on their radar.

More nagging pain they get the more likely to be paid.? I assume that's what you help with?

Yes that is what we do But we are also a licensed credit referencing agency so we can (and do) provide data to other agencies on how a company behaves.

180 days I have seen, disgusting but its going forward, suppliers can decide long term to stop supplying or put up prices. Something they should have covered in late payments act adding a strongarm clause.

Often suppliers are dependent on getting their goods into the chains, so it can be a case of put up or go out of business. Hopefully the recast late payment legislation will redress the balance. But given the new talk of the secured finance scheme we aren't holding out much hope!

lovely learnt something new. The idiots made it easier

In fairness pre-packs do have legitimate uses, but are often just an excuse to avoid existing liabilities and leave creditors out of pocket.

strange I thought you moved up to the top of the unsecured debtor pool?

Nope, all unsecured creditors have the same right to a dividend irrespective of if they have a CCJ or just unpaid invoices.

No the receivers always seem to have so many costs, imagine the difficulty of doing the equivalent of a year end and paying your suppliers, not surprising there is no money left

If I was going to pick a career now, I would be going into the insolvency business. They always seem to get paid...

Although worryingly we are now seeing incidents of factoring companies sinking profitable businesses in back room deals with insolvency practitioners, but that's another story...

has it how?

Not through any legislation, just a slow change in the courts outlook. It is still theoretically possible to get a judge to agree, but in our recent experience it isn't anywhere as easy an argument to win as it was a few years ago.

no wonder administration is so popular.

Indeed.

[vetran]

It depends how they're playing "the game". If it was us HMRC would always be paid and in our experience one CCJ inevitably leads to another.

would be the sensible option agree, but if they are burning the VAT & Corp tax aren't they a lot of cash to miss?

since the government disconnected them and lost preferential debtor status doesn't it happen more?

True, but conversely they have been "allowed" to get away with it.

More nagging pain they get the more likely to be paid.? I assume that's what you help with?

A company doesn't need to be nosediving to do this, many businesses are doing the same currently just to artificially increase available cashflow. From sole traders to FTSE100 companies. One national supermarket chain just put all none food suppliers on 75 day payment terms up from 30!

180 days I have seen, disgusting but its going forward, suppliers can decide long term to stop supplying or put up prices. Something they should have covered in late payments act adding a strongarm clause.

It's Phoenix and you don't even need to sell it to the dog, you can use a pre-pack administration. All nice and legal.

lovely learnt something new. The idiots made it easier

Credit reports are useful, but not infallible. The financial situation of a company can change dramatically in a financial year. Look at the directors, if they have a string of failed/dissolved businesses in the past chances are they know exactly how to stay just on the right side of the law.

makes sense

That is incorrect. It doesn't matter when you get a CCJ you will still be an unsecured creditor and if the company goes under the CCJ is worthless as it cannot be enforced. You, like everyone else, will have to wait and see if the receiver pays a dividend (and they rarely do).

strange I thought you moved up to the top of the unsecured debtor pool?
No the receivers always seem to have so many costs, imagine the difficulty of doing the equivalent of a year end and paying your suppliers, not surprising there is no money left

Technically under the Civil Procedure Rules going legal is supposed to be the final step, not the first and given the budget cuts HMCTS are facing you could be looking at a three month wait from the issue of proceedings to securing a judgment.

oh

Time was, if you could get a personal cheque from the director you could claim they had personally taken on the debt and pursue them if the company went under. Unfortunately that time has passed.

has it how?

no wonder administration is so popular.

[Safe Collections]

Naivity award of the week! Or are you trolling?

We did have our tongue firmly in our cheek at that point yes... Probably should have added a suitable smiley

If they are having problems I doubt a few weeks of one minor supplier's invoices will push it over the edge, From the pantomime so far I expect HMRC or similar large creditor will shut them down for late payment soon anyway.

It depends how they're playing "the game". If it was us HMRC would always be paid and in our experience one CCJ inevitably leads to another. If they are actually restructuring the business and the CCJs start mounting up they may well decide to just ditch the company and start a brand new one.

They have been stringing him along intentionally, unfortunately the only way to reply is to make it obvious that you will make sure they can't do that to their contractors anymore unless they pay you promptly.

True, but conversely they have been "allowed" to get away with it.

I would expect a court date would be responded to with a swift quiet payment so they can keep the house of cards going.

More than likely, but not guaranteed.

Smells to me on the evidence presented like a company that is nose diving and using their contractors as a free overdraft.

A company doesn't need to be nosediving to do this, many businesses are doing the same currently just to artificially increase available cashflow. From sole traders to FTSE100 companies. One national supermarket chain just put all none food suppliers on 75 day payment terms up from 30!

History suggests that many agencies do this, many then fold leaving lots of contractors owed thousands, sell the contracts on to the Directors wives or dogs then resurface debt free with another list of directors related to the first. It even has a name 'doing a Pheonix'.

It's Phoenix and you don't even need to sell it to the dog, you can use a pre-pack administration. All nice and legal.

Do a credit check and see how bad they are. If they are fairly flush then its just Finance using you as free money, make it difficult for them and they will behave in future.

Credit reports are useful, but not infallible. The financial situation of a company can change dramatically in a financial year. Look at the directors, if they have a string of failed/dissolved businesses in the past chances are they know exactly how to stay just on the right side of the law.

If not they may be about to Pheonix and you need to get in there before the fire is lit. Also the sooner you get your demand in the higher up the debtors list you are.

That is incorrect. It doesn't matter when you get a CCJ you will still be an unsecured creditor and if the company goes under the CCJ is worthless as it cannot be enforced. You, like everyone else, will have to wait and see if the receiver pays a dividend (and they rarely do).

I would urge going legal quickly especially if its under £5k and can be done for £20.

Technically under the Civil Procedure Rules going legal is supposed to be the final step, not the first and given the budget cuts HMCTS are facing you could be looking at a three month wait from the issue of proceedings to securing a judgment.

If you don't want to do that tell them you will be down Monday to pick up a personal cheque from the Director.

Time was, if you could get a personal cheque from the director you could claim they had personally taken on the debt and pursue them if the company went under. Unfortunately that time has passed.

[vetran]

On the plus side after four months of excuses it now sounds like you have got to the truth. Why they couldn't just tell you the truth rather than spinning you a yarn is anyone's guess?!?

But are you sure you want to go legal? It's possible legal action could tip a struggling company into insolvency. At which point your money effectively vanishes...

Naivity award of the week! Or are you trolling?

If they are having problems I doubt a few weeks of one minor supplier's invoices will push it over the edge, From the pantomime so far I expect HMRC or similar large creditor will shut them down for late payment soon anyway.

They have been stringing him along intentionally, unfortunately the only way to reply is to make it obvious that you will make sure they can't do that to their contractors anymore unless they pay you promptly.

I would expect a court date would be responded to with a swift quiet payment so they can keep the house of cards going.

Smells to me on the evidence presented like a company that is nose diving and using their contractors as a free overdraft.

History suggests that many agencies do this, many then fold leaving lots of contractors owed thousands, sell the contracts on to the Directors wives or dogs then resurface debt free with another list of directors related to the first. It even has a name 'doing a Pheonix'.

Do a credit check and see how bad they are. If they are fairly flush then its just Finance using you as free money, make it difficult for them and they will behave in future.

If not they may be about to Pheonix and you need to get in there before the fire is lit. Also the sooner you get your demand in the higher up the debtors list you are.

I would urge going legal quickly especially if its under £5k and can be done for £20.

If you don't want to do that tell them you will be down Monday to pick up a personal cheque from the Director.

What would their response if you said 'oh yeah I didn't turn up last week because the dog ate my laptop, can you pay me anyway?' you would be out of contract etc. I doubt many will give you an advance of a few weeks money either.

[BigTime]

Fair enough

Last question (promise!) did you check to make sure they don't have unpaid CCJs?

Also can we borrow those quotes for a blog post?

Not yet. I noticed that from one of your other posts and it hadn't occurred to me to do that but will do so before submitting the money claim.

Regarding the quotes, feel free.

[Safe Collections]

I don't believe they're truly struggling, just taking the piss and I'm not sure I'm being told the truth. They still answer the phone and have current contracts/jobs listed. I'm expecting to be paid in full once they receive the money claim notification.

Fair enough

Last question (promise!) did you check to make sure they don't have unpaid CCJs?

Also can we borrow those quotes for a blog post?

[BigTime]

On the plus side after four months of excuses it now sounds like you have got to the truth. Why they couldn't just tell you the truth rather than spinning you a yarn is anyone's guess?!?

But are you sure you want to go legal? It's possible legal action could tip a struggling company into insolvency. At which point your money effectively vanishes...

I don't believe they're truly struggling, just taking the piss and I'm not sure I'm being told the truth. They still answer the phone and have current contracts/jobs listed. I'm expecting to be paid in full once they receive the money claim notification.

[Safe Collections]

I'm afraid so. New letter has been submitted via creditfocus today and a new excuse has been received too:

"I am sorry that I have let you down. It is poor. I am in a position currently where funding weekly payments is having to come out of personal funds. I can make a payment this week, and will advise next Monday / Tuesday of the amount that I can pay then. Longer term we are in the process of re-financing the company, and the hope is that once this is complete, we can make larger payments."

I'm bored of it so am going to go legal from here.

On the plus side after four months of excuses it now sounds like you have got to the truth. Why they couldn't just tell you the truth rather than spinning you a yarn is anyone's guess?!?

But are you sure you want to go legal? It's possible legal action could tip a struggling company into insolvency. At which point your money effectively vanishes...

[BigTime]

Are these excuses all from the same agency?

If they claim the dog ate the cheque book its time to worry... (Yes, we really had that as an excuse...)

I'm afraid so. New letter has been submitted via creditfocus today and a new excuse has been received too:

"I am sorry that I have let you down. It is poor. I am in a position currently where funding weekly payments is having to come out of personal funds. I can make a payment this week, and will advise next Monday / Tuesday of the amount that I can pay then. Longer term we are in the process of re-financing the company, and the hope is that once this is complete, we can make larger payments."

I'm bored of it so am going to go legal from here.

[Safe Collections]

Is it allowable to charge backdated Late Payment fee's ? I can't find anywhere where it says it isn't allowed as essentially the payment was paid late and I've simply not yet claimed the late payment fee.

The agent in question has paid the last 6 invoices late, usually by 2-4 days (i.e the friday after invoice is due) for the last 6 months.

Yes it is allowed

Over the last 4 months, I've had:

"I will look into this for you and come back to you as soon as possible"

"Yes, it seems like a few have become delayed somewhere in the system. This was due, I believe to waiting for PO numbers, for the move to the new contract. I will ensure these get caught up over the next few weeks if that is ok with you"

"I just wanted to ask for your assistance with your last few payments. We are waiting for x to make their final payments to us, and I wanted to ask if it was ok for us to wait a few extra days grace to make each of your last payments. I appreciate they are now late, as per your contract, but it would be helpful to us, if we could wait for x to pay us. It will probably mean, each payment is approximately 1 week late"

"I am back in the UK next week so will organise these final payments as soon as possible"

"I will get onto payroll and get them dealt with"

"Can we speak tomorrow? What time suits you and on what number"

"I can confirm we are still in business!. Sorry I haven’t called you. I have been out a lot this week. I am travelling currently, but should be able to give you a call this afternoon"

"Sorry I didn't call. Bad form I know. I will put a payment in for you early next week and then sort the final one soon after.
Sorry for the delay - it is very unprofessional I know"

"We are really struggling with some payments currently due to some unforeseen circumstances. We have some very bad debt that we are struggling to recover, and it has had a knock on effect on our ability to pay some of our own creditors. As a small company, things like this are very difficult for us to deal with. My contractors are my number 1 priority, and I will ensure you are paid, but I cant at this stage promise a specific date, as I am being messed around a lot with our own debtors."

"We are currently undergoing some cash flow difficulties, due to some bad debt from some of our largest clients. Although they are not connected to you, they are affecting some of our suppliers, and for that I am very sorry. I would like to respectfully ask you to allow us some time to make these payments to you, and I will commit to making them. I do not want to default, and am very sorry that I have breached our terms and conditions with the payment terms."

"Apologies for the non contact. I will start this next week with the first payment. I hope this is acceptable"

"I will have an update for you tomorrow. The plan is to pay weekly as agreed, yes"

I believe the other contractors have been paid so it's just me he doesn't seem to like, despite his kind words. They'll be added to the agencies to avoid in due course.

Are these excuses all from the same agency?

If they claim the dog ate the cheque book its time to worry... (Yes, we really had that as an excuse...)

[original PM]

Is it allowable to charge backdated Late Payment fee's ? I can't find anywhere where it says it isn't allowed as essentially the payment was paid late and I've simply not yet claimed the late payment fee.

The agent in question has paid the last 6 invoices late, usually by 2-4 days (i.e the friday after invoice is due) for the last 6 months.

You can try what you want - but it may just give them an excuse to not to pay that invoice... potentially put it on a seperate invoice.

Either that or pop over with a baseball bat..

[The Spartan]

Roll on April hopefully I can get a gig working from home that would be bliss