Reply to: No contract but......

[Mordac]

Also if you have had you contract checked and passed, they can't do you for interest & penalties, only the actual tax on the deemed salary. *******.

[DaveB]

Yes, but if your work practices don't reflect the contract, then they can use that in their favour, but you can't. Is that it? If so, it's hardly "fair".

Yep, thats about it. At the investigation stage they arn't looking for a fair solution, they are looking for a reason to start legal action. No it's not fair and you end up arguing the case in court. You'd probably still win but do you really need the aggravation of a court case when you can get your contract checked quickly easily and relatively cheaply?

[Fleetwood]

They only go after your working practices if they can't get you on the contract. If the contract is duff they will use that as evidence that you are caught by IR35 since that is what you are contractually obliged to do.

Yes, but if your work practices don't reflect the contract, then they can use that in their favour, but you can't. Is that it? If so, it's hardly "fair".

[DaveB]

...is why everyone has their contracts run through with a fine-tooth comb by specialist lawyers to see if they're IR35 friendly, whereas the IR will totally ignore the contract and look at the contactor's true working practices at the customer site during an IR35 investigation?

Confused of Brussels

They only go after your working practices if they can't get you on the contract. If the contract is duff they will use that as evidence that you are caught by IR35 since that is what you are contractually obliged to do.

[Fleetwood]

Ce que je ne comprends pas....

...is why everyone has their contracts run through with a fine-tooth comb by specialist lawyers to see if they're IR35 friendly, whereas the IR will totally ignore the contract and look at the contactor's true working practices at the customer site during an IR35 investigation?

Confused of Brussels

[BoredBloke]

Also, and an afterthought on this.

On Thursday I was told that they were going to make the initial changes and send me a contract. Nothing turned up. They made the changes this afternoon and were obviously going to wait until I'd started before sending me the contract, without the changes I had requested.

Now as it stands I have no wiggle room to get this checked for IR35. I am expected to start tomorrow and have only an electronic copy of the contract.

[BoredBloke]

I spoke to them this morning as the new contract had not arrived. I was told that an ammended one would be sent in nthe afternoon. This afternoon I spoke to somebody there who told me that they couldn't take out the 'repayment clause' as the client had insisted on it. I told them that I would not sign and definately would not be starting work. Now I have just got another contract and spotted this term.

'be subject to the legitimate instructions and monitoring of the client or end user and the direction, supervision and control of the client or end user and abide by the the rules and regulations of the client or end user and any proposal requirements relating to independent contractors'

Not keen of the control and direction aspects of this clause!

[Mordac]

They are supposed to be sending me an electronic copy this afternoon. Won't be able to get it vetted before tomorrow though.

You can try emailing it to Bauer & Cottrell, when I used them recently they were very quick (and thorough). They also spoke to the agency and by the end of the day I had a new pdf contract via email, and a paper one in the post. You need to pay by credit/debit card for this though.

[BoredBloke]

They are supposed to be sending me an electronic copy this afternoon. Won't be able to get it vetted before tomorrow though.

[BoredBloke]

London died this morning for me. Client withdrew the role.

[wendigo100]

I have done in the past Tony, but in your circumstances, I would use it as a delaying tactic until you know one way or the other about London (assuming that London is still live and likely).

I don't know whether or not you trust this agent, but it sounds like they are deliberately delaying the contract until after you have started because they have no intention of changing it, and they judge that you'll accept it in order to get paid for work already done.

You could always say that your accountant won't let you start!

[Mordac]

I've been contracting for almost 8 years and frequently sign contracts after I have started.

As have I, but I would at the very least want to see an electronic copy. Mainly for IR35 checking reasons, but also to confirm basic things like the rate and which expenses are covered and which aren't etc.

[threaded]

....I am expected to start tomorrow. Would you? Does starting imply that you accept the terms and conditions of an unseen contract?

Do remember that your insurances are probably not valid in such a circumstance. i.e. driving to and from the client, work you do at the client and working at the client.

[Fleetwood]

I have started gigs without the paperwork (which has always come through eventually), and have had no problems, but others on here in the same situation have had issues.

hth (but it probably doesn't)

[Joe Black.]

....I am expected to start tomorrow. Would you? Does starting imply that you accept the terms and conditions of an unseen contract?

It may imply that, but there is nothing legally binding you to that contract until you sign it. So if it turns up and there is something contractually you disagree with then you can dispute it. I've been contracting for almost 8 years and frequently sign contracts after I have started.