Reply to: London sucks the life out of Britain?

[Scoobos]

So what was the alternative? That we maintain the monopoly that was the source of fuel? What I find interesting is how those that loathe Thatcher offer no grasp of understanding beyond believing that the rest of the country somehow owed the miners a living. Similar to the print workers.

I think the first step in understanding me (who loathes Thatcher) is that it was done very much with Economics at the forefront of politics , this has continued. I do not believe that serving the interests of the global market == serving your populace... That's what politicians should be doing.. Has exposing everything like BT, the transport infrastructure to market forces improved them? No, its just improved the pockets of those who have shares in them in the first few years.

The second step is not equating me to Labour just because I oppose Tories, its too simplistic.

Far more people DONT have a career thats tied to finance, than do.. so why is every political decision around protecting and babysitting the City's financials?

It is not true to say that high GDP, profitability, or a strong economy == a better standard of living, unless you have total equality of earnings, which is of course impossible (I wouldnt want it any other way).

But rather than has us paid to incentivise hard work, I think its gone too far the other way , where the people who play the game in economics (banks, investment houses, insurers etc) are being paid over the odds for not really acheiving much other than fake short term returns. All these people care about are short term (year on year) growth , when what these industries should be (especially given that car insurance is mandatory in this country) is public service driven FIRST AND FOREMOST.

We've bailed them out as we're saying on one hand that they are an essential public service - but on the other saying that exposing everything to the market is the answer.

I loathe the mine closures, because I believe that the decision was short sighted, in much the same way as the bankers making decisions to offshore IT jobs at the cost of UK workers - with no competing industries for them to go to...

Sure we might save a buck now, but as soon as we destroy our IT capacity, the same way we did the mines, or ship building - then the price for Coal, , ships, or IT services will increase exponentially - as will the associated cost of keeping mass unemployment within your country (crime, birth rate, domestic violence etc will all increase).

Has closing the mines resulted in cheaper energy prices for us? Is coal cheaper now to import than its relative cost to mine back then ? Add on the cost of maintaining decimated towns and cities like say - South Hetton, or your typical Welsh mining village , and the benefit culture that grows as 3 generations with no hope of work go down?


I know if I'm not getting a contract this month, my wife's getting a pasting <joking... joking>

I'm just an amateur (which I'm sure you'll agree) but some of these arguements are compelling and I'm certainly sold to the high opportunity cost of closing the ship building industry in Sunderland, for example.

[Diver]

My wife is welsh and her favourite speil is Thatcher and the miners.

No mention of Brown and his pension raid or anything like that.

FTFY

[Scrag Meister]

I don't really buy this - they did that to themselves in the mid 70's before thatcher got in.

Having to go to the IMF cap in hand put an end to the British tolerance for the "stupid" unions (leyland etc). Thatcher had NOTHING to do with that, she just profited from it.

Thatcher got rid of the valid unions, who only faught when the entire industry was getting canned (e.g Mining).. People who have no background in Mining communities really fail to comprehend just how much of a guarantee of mass unemployment and the death of community , that this action caused.

There are far too many places that have NEVER recovered, and unless we have government intervention to the same standard we've given financial services, will remain so.

But then, who cares, only the educated vote right?

All my opinion, I do find it interesting how shes the devil to me and an angel to others.

My wife is welsh and her favourite speil is Thatcher and the miners.

No mention of Brown and the country's gold or anything like that.

[vetran]

Thatcher got rid of the valid unions, who only faught when the entire industry was getting canned (e.g Mining).

All my opinion, I do find it interesting how shes the devil to me and an angel to others.

The coal mines had been steadily closing since the war, (search history of UK mine closure)Thatcher's government wanted to mothball the mines and selected a few. Scargill & co went on strike and many of the pits flooded. This combined with greater automation meant many pit jobs were lost.

If the pits had stayed open most of the jobs would have been mechanised anyway due to H&S considerations.

What her government failed to do probably partially due to the strikes was to provide re training & investment to create new jobs.

But as someone said that was 30 years ago get over it! New Lie killed IT but the result was lower tax take & overall profitability.

Ghandi & Mandela inspire the same response in many.

[swamp]

So what was the alternative? That we maintain the monopoly that was the source of fuel? What I find interesting is how those that loathe Thatcher offer no grasp of understanding beyond believing that the rest of the country somehow owed the miners a living. Similar to the print workers.

Why would anyone actually want to be a coal miner in the first place? It's a tulip job and a dangerous job and the pay is rubbish.

[Diver]

If it wasn't for London (and Wales) this country would be on it's knees by now.

It's all a bit too Pythonish for me

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye, very passable, that, very passable bit of risotto.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Nothing like a good glass of Château de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You're right there, Obadiah.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Château de Chasselas, eh?
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
A cup o' cold tea.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Without milk or sugar.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Or tea.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
In a cracked cup, an' all............................................... .

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

[TimberWolf]

So what was the alternative? That we maintain the monopoly that was the source of fuel? What I find interesting is how those that loathe Thatcher offer no grasp of understanding beyond believing that the rest of the country somehow owed the miners a living. Similar to the print workers.

And bankers.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't really buy this - they did that to themselves in the mid 70's before thatcher got in.

Having to go to the IMF cap in hand put an end to the British tolerance for the "stupid" unions (leyland etc). Thatcher had NOTHING to do with that, she just profited from it.

Thatcher got rid of the valid unions, who only faught when the entire industry was getting canned (e.g Mining).. People who have no background in Mining communities really fail to comprehend just how much of a guarantee of mass unemployment and the death of community , that this action caused.

There are far too many places that have NEVER recovered, and unless we have government intervention to the same standard we've given financial services, will remain so.

But then, who cares, only the educated vote right?

All my opinion, I do find it interesting how shes the devil to me and an angel to others.

So what was the alternative? That we maintain the monopoly that was the source of fuel? What I find interesting is how those that loathe Thatcher offer no grasp of understanding beyond believing that the rest of the country somehow owed the miners a living. Similar to the print workers.

[Scoobos]

Grey it may be but at least most of the cars still have hubcaps to give the city a bit of shine

A great day on the forum for smiles Cheers!

[Scoobos]

however she was voted in to rid us of the dead weight of the Unions and nationalised Industries for which we will forever be in her debt.

I don't really buy this - they did that to themselves in the mid 70's before thatcher got in.

Having to go to the IMF cap in hand put an end to the British tolerance for the "stupid" unions (leyland etc). Thatcher had NOTHING to do with that, she just profited from it.

Thatcher got rid of the valid unions, who only faught when the entire industry was getting canned (e.g Mining).. People who have no background in Mining communities really fail to comprehend just how much of a guarantee of mass unemployment and the death of community , that this action caused.

There are far too many places that have NEVER recovered, and unless we have government intervention to the same standard we've given financial services, will remain so.

But then, who cares, only the educated vote right?

All my opinion, I do find it interesting how shes the devil to me and an angel to others.

[DodgyAgent]

"Here, Margaret Thatcher ruined manufacturing to serve the interests of a City keen to acquire assets overseas rather than investing in Britain."

I also have sympathy with this - especially given the recent revelations regarding her attitude to Liverpool to "strip her assets for London". This no doubt applied to most other northern cities.

Having visited London I also thought it was a great city with plenty to do and a cultural dream - now that I live nearby I've found that under the surface it is indeed a horrid vastly overpriced, grey place.

Grey it may be but at least most of the cars still have hubcaps to give the city a bit of shine

[Sysman]

Here is the real truth behind his rant:



Austin Mitchell needs to get over it. It was thirty years ago that Thatcher alledgedly "ruined manufacturing". And how exactly did she do this? By swinging her handbag around and flattening the old steel forges?

High interest rates and the strong pound did for a lot of manufacturing.

Most of the union trouble came from nationalised industries: steel, coal, car manufacturing etc.

[Scoobos]

"Here, Margaret Thatcher ruined manufacturing to serve the interests of a City keen to acquire assets overseas rather than investing in Britain."

I also have sympathy with this - especially given the recent revelations regarding her attitude to Liverpool to "strip her assets for London". This no doubt applied to most other northern cities.

Having visited London I also thought it was a great city with plenty to do and a cultural dream - now that I live nearby I've found that under the surface it is indeed a horrid vastly overpriced, grey place.

[DodgyAgent]

ftfy

Fair point

[vetran]

Unhappy days are here again. In the fun factory we MPs are under extraordinary rendition and subject to regular doses of waterboarding. The latest began todaywith the publication of our allowance claims for the year up to April to add to the four years of greedy guzzle chronicled by the Daily Telegraph.

Yep complete muppet, imagine comparing being kidnapped and waterboarded with having your expenses audited (well scanned and the worst excesses thrown out with little chance of fraudulent activity resulting in prosecution). Arrogant champagne socialist.

Still stuck in the stocks | Austin Mitchell | Comment is free | The Guardian