Reply to: No doubt it's all our fault

[Fungus]

Snaw, you've even more lost the plot than Fungus. Are you seriously saying there are people here who think it acceptable to execute a muslim for practicing Islam in the UK.

Yet another person who has not read my posts.

If you lot took the trouble to read them before commenting, you would see references to Muslim countries being "brutal dictatorships". What's more most of these are or were created and/or supported by the West for their own interests. Even Iran was a dictatorship created by the West, and overthrown by anti-democratic loonies.

The difference is that most of you lot seem to think that Muslim countries being barbaric implies that Muslims are inherently barbaric.

China has some barbaric practices so presumably this means that the Chinese people are inately barbaric. Italy has severe problems with the Mafia especially in the South. Presumably that means that the Italians are all Mafiosi?

Fungus

[lilelvis2000]

lilelvis2000 - why did you delete your post ?

your post suggested we took a look at http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm

which i did and wanted to respond to..... i just dont understand why you seem to have deleted your post

I realised the site was an Ahmadiyya site and am not sure if the translation they have there is a recognized translation. Considering that there is some question as to whether Ahamadiyya Muslims are in fact Muslims. I will find the same verses on another site - when I get time.

However my point is that anyone can pluck individial verses of any book, put them together and create any message they like.

[snaw]

Snaw, you've even more lost the plot than Fungus. Are you seriously saying there are people here who think it acceptable to execute a muslim for practicing Islam in the UK.

Honestly, there are a handful of people who post here who I'm personally convinced would be quite happy with just that, or at the very least wouldn't be to bothered if it did.

[The Lone Gunman]

For someone who claims they know a lot about it I would have figured you'd know it was written in arabic!

And not being funny but when you talk about the teachers bias ... pot ... kettle black ...

You can't spend a couple of days quoting the Koran and acting like an expert if you're 100% relying on your own sole interpretation of a holy book that experts who differ from you spend a lifetime studying, but you refute quite catagorically.

Arabic. You know, I regularly do that and I dont know why. Probably because it doesnt matter to me.
Pot, kettle, black and experts: Fair enough, but I dont know how else to do this. I dont claim to be an expert and I have offered my understanding ONLY as my understanding and have invited others to make up their own minds! I have said that I may be paranoid!

Dont rely on me. Make up your own mind. I will offer my opinion if asked.

Chico: As I have told you before, I am an atheist. That does not stop me from being fascinated by religion and what drives the believers. To that end I have tried to understand a number of religions, usualy because I met or knew a practitioner or I was visiting a country where it was practiced.

Just because it is a work of fiction doesnt seem to stop those who believe in it using it as an excuse for all kinds of (what I consider to be) barbarism.

Thats enough on this subject, I have done this enough times now.

[Fungus]

Are you off your head, Fungus? Last time I looked you didn't risk being executed in any western country for setting up a mosque or espousing religions other than Christianity.

You didn't read my post did you?

[Fungus]

I quite agree that we should not necessarily confuse what corrupt states do with the tenets of Islam, or tribal practices in Islamic countries for that matter.

However, you did not read what I said, which was moderate Islamic states. Look at rules for Christians who marry Muslims in Malysia for example. Or the death sentence for homosexuality in Indonesia. If a practice is carried out in the name of Islam, whether the country is moderate or not, then it is perfectly fair and reasonable to call it Islamic. Can you build a church or publicly read a bible in Saudi Arabia? No. Yet the Saudi governmnent spends a good deal of money funding mosques here.

As for this tulipe about what Christian countries did over a hundred years ago, that is precisely the point behind the charge that Islam is backward. Christian societies have mostly stopped doing it.

PS I expect the Christian Serbs did kill a fair few, but let's get the history right as to who invaded who.

I would not call states such as Indonesia moderate. Quite the opposite.

No I would not say that Islam is backward. Rather Islamic countries are 'backward' in the sense of being dictatorships etc.

You would then be surprised to hear that many (most?) UK Muslims are happier here than in Middle Eastern states on the grounds that they are freer. Using your argument that Islam is rotten to the core woud imply that they want to live there.

Fungus

[Tex]

Take a read through this thread again and tell me if you think there would be an outcry here if we did? That's sort of the point being put across, no ...

Snaw, you've even more lost the plot than Fungus. Are you seriously saying there are people here who think it acceptable to execute a muslim for practicing Islam in the UK.

[snaw]

Are you off your head, Fungus? Last time I looked you didn't risk being executed in any western country for setting up a mosque or espousing religions other than Christianity.

Take a read through this thread again and tell me if you think there would be an outcry here if we did? That's sort of the point being put across, no ...

[snaw]

Or the death sentence for homosexuality in Indonesia.

Think you're confused on that one - it's not even illegal. And I'm not so sure about Christian's and Muslims in Malaysia, it's a big mixed up country with lot's of intermarriage - what is the issue with it exactly?

[The Master]

I have yet to see that level of tolerance in the West.

Are you off your head, Fungus? Last time I looked you didn't risk being executed in any western country for setting up a mosque or espousing religions other than Christianity.

[xoggoth]

I quite agree that we should not necessarily confuse what corrupt states do with the tenets of Islam, or tribal practices in Islamic countries for that matter.

However, you did not read what I said, which was moderate Islamic states. Look at rules for Christians who marry Muslims in Malysia for example. Or the death sentence for homosexuality in Indonesia. If a practice is carried out in the name of Islam, whether the country is moderate or not, then it is perfectly fair and reasonable to call it Islamic. Can you build a church or publicly read a bible in Saudi Arabia? No. Yet the Saudi governmnent spends a good deal of money funding mosques here.

As for this tulipe about what Christian countries did over a hundred years ago, that is precisely the point behind the charge that Islam is backward. Christian societies have mostly stopped doing it.

PS I expect the Christian Serbs did kill a fair few, but let's get the history right as to who invaded who.

[Fungus]

This is the big flaw of Islam, it tolerates on its own terms and that tolerance often falls far short of what they expect from us. Forget the theory, check what freedoms non-Muslims actually have in some so-called moderate Islamic states.

Bollox. As someone once said earlier in this thread.

If you look at most of these Islamic countries, you will see a state apparatus that tortures dissidents, and anyone who speaks out. You are confusing Islam and corrupt degenerate states largely created and supported by the West, in large part as a result of past collonialism i.e. the British Empire, French Empire, Ottoman Empire etc.

You also forget what Europe was like 100 years and more ago.

Britain invaded other countries, stealing their goods, and killing people, all in the name of Christianity. To have a vote you had to own large amounts of land. And be male, since women could not own property.

Germany (and the earlier Germanic States) was a dictatorship, with no vote for the masses, which was part of the reason it went to war in 1914. In the 30's Germany was a dictatorship that treated many groups abominably, murdering many of them, and claiming to be Christian. That was a good example of a supposedly modern civilised country being led by nutty loonies, and committing atrocities.

The Serbs who massacred Muslims were Christians.

And the Irish terrorists ostensibly killed in the name of a religion. (Though it has little to do with religion, and everything to do with tribalism.)

You could make a case for Christianity being a hateful warmongering religion. If you thought about it in simplistic terms.

FFS for the most part people are people, and are the same everywhere. They want a comfortable easy life for their family, including a stable job and a nice home. All this Daily Mail style "Muslims are inherently evil" tulipe gets on my nerves.

[eternalnomad]

lilelvis2000 - why did you delete your post

lilelvis2000 - why did you delete your post ?

your post suggested we took a look at http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm

which i did and wanted to respond to..... i just dont understand why you seem to have deleted your post

[xoggoth]

I always love tales about the enlightened Ottoman empire. I suspect that many in the Balkans and parts of Austria and (what is now) Italy didn't share that opinion at the time. I bet when they were building that famous wall of Serbian skulls the Serbs were really appreciative.

This is the big flaw of Islam, it tolerates on its own terms and that tolerance often falls far short of what they expect from us. Forget the theory, check what freedoms non-Muslims actually have in some so-called moderate Islamic states.

[Fungus]

How odd. Some people criticise some Muslims for being literal, and then attack the Koran using a literalist interpretation. I'm sure I could lift quotes from the Christian tomes that encourage murder, and other crimes.

Fundamentalist Christians believe the Bible is the word of God as dictated to man and accept it as literal truth. Look at Chico. A mad loony if ever there was one.

Many centuries ago when we were murdering anyone who did not profess a belief in Christianity (or more specifically, the right brand), the Ottoman Empire was a very tolerant and progressive place. In Palestine Christians and Jews were tolerated alongside Muslims, and they were even allowed authority over certain areas of life, interpreting some laws according to their traditions, rather than having to obey Islamic law. I have yet to see that level of tolerance in the West. Now the tables are turned. It's all about culture. Middle Eastern countries are brutal dictatorships, and the result of oppression is often extremism. It means that the moderates are not in control, and society is distorted.