Reply to: Oh dear, we're falling out of the sky

[d000hg]

It seems to be an iron law of human nature that the lower your IQ the more you're likely to be an armchair expert.

I'm sure there's a quip to be made here about the implications of being an armchair expert on human nature but I can't be bothered today.

[Scoobos]

That does seem to be a design issue with Airbus. Also, when there are conflicting instructions on the joystick, that the plane averages the two rather than giving some kind of warning that the pilots are giving contradictory instructions.

just... wow...

[zeitghost]

Feck me, watched the programme on 4 last evening at 20:00 about this.

The right seat had the control stick all the way back from 35,000 feet down to impact.

Stunning.

[Cliphead]

A wee reminder to myself, fellow and non aviators what airmanship means.

Airmanship is skill and knowledge applied to aerial navigation, similar to seamanship in maritime navigation. Airmanship covers a broad range of desirable behaviors and abilities in an aviator. It is not simply a measure of skill or technique, but also a measure of a pilot’s awareness of the aircraft, the environment in which it operates, and of his own capabilities.

Airmanship can be defined as:

• A sound acquaintance with the principles of flight,
• The ability to operate an airplane with competence and precision both on the ground and in the air, and
• The exercise of sound judgment that results in optimal operational safety and efficiency.

The three fundamental principles of expert airmanship are skill, proficiency, and the discipline to apply them in a safe and efficient manner. Discipline is the foundation of airmanship. The complexity of the aviation environment demands a foundation of solid airmanship, and a healthy, positive approach to combating pilot error.

[Cliphead]

That was also a major factor in the worst ever air disaster - two 747's colliding on the runway at Tenerife.

KLM captain was one of the most senior pilots in the entire airline. The most junior person on the flight deck, the flight engineer spotted the danger and tried to warn the captain, who instantly slapped him down - 30 seconds later, everyone on that plane was dead, along with most of those on the Pam AM

Yes, similar cockpit circumstances though different situations. In all of these accidents perfectly serviceable aircraft crashed and people killed because of pilot incompetence.

[centurian]

There was the crash of a cargo plane a few years ago when the captain had incorrectly set the altitude hold on the autopilot, the inexperienced copilot pointed this out several times which the captain ignored and joked with the flight engineer "what's the difference between a copilot and a duck? A duck can fly", right before they hit a mountain. Crew resource management and communication changes were made after that crash but apparently the lessons went unheeded by this crew.

That was also a major factor in the worst ever air disaster - two 747's colliding on the runway at Tenerife.

KLM captain was one of the most senior pilots in the entire airline. The most junior person on the flight deck, the flight engineer spotted the danger and tried to warn the captain, who instantly slapped him down - 30 seconds later, everyone on that plane was dead, along with most of those on the Pam AM

[Cliphead]

Couple of points. Why did the plane except dual inputs, and then use the net effect of the two inputs (effectively cancelling each other out)? Bad design surely?

A simple bulb to illuminate which stick is in control oughta do it.

I recall a crash some years ago where the pilot and co-pilot had an argument. The captain said "Cheer up" to his colleage which he heard as "Gear up". Again totally avoidable.

Disregarding stick input and averages there were other indicators to the crew that would have given them a clearer picture of the situation. So pitot icing nixed the airspeed indicator, the GPS groundspeed indication would have covered that taking into account wind speed and direction at their altitude. The weather radar would provide some input about those factors as well as indicating severe weather ahead which should have been avoided.

Ignoring a stall warning for the length of time that they did is unbelievable.

There was the crash of a cargo plane a few years ago when the captain had incorrectly set the altitude hold on the autopilot, the inexperienced copilot pointed this out several times which the captain ignored and joked with the flight engineer "what's the difference between a copilot and a duck? A duck can fly", right before they hit a mountain. Crew resource management and communication changes were made after that crash but apparently the lessons went unheeded by this crew.

[wim121]

I recall a crash some years ago where the pilot and co-pilot had an argument. The captain said "Cheer up" to his colleage which he heard as "Gear up". Again totally avoidable.

Reminds me of this video ...... (wouldnt let me embed)

Simpsons: Pilot Homer | MilkandCookies

[suityou01]

Couple of points. Why did the plane except dual inputs, and then use the net effect of the two inputs (effectively cancelling each other out)? Bad design surely?

A simple bulb to illuminate which stick is in control oughta do it.

I recall a crash some years ago where the pilot and co-pilot had an argument. The captain said "Cheer up" to his colleage which he heard as "Gear up". Again totally avoidable.

[wim121]

Exactly my point - the guy had 3000+ hours total flight time and countless hours in a sim. You don't get into the right hand seat for a major carrier unless you're highly capable. It's akin to forgetting how to walk when it's raining

Hahahaha exactly. Love the simile btw, very well put.

[Sysman]

Have you seen how an airbus is flown?

Straight into a building?

[zeitghost]

The second co-pilot being forgiven for believing (under the circumstances) that the first co-pilot had pushed the stick back as he had insisted, when in fact he hadn't.

He then incorrectly concluded that they had already tried lowering the nose, and he too became confused.

Whereas with those dreadful oldfashioned mechanical control sticks it would have been obvious, since they're mechanically interlinked.

[Basil Fawlty]

Never played fsx, last time I played a flight sim was fs2000 I think .....


It is a fair statement to make though. Pilots log hundreds of hours at least, before they even get a commercial license. Then if they are trained on a new plane, they are trained step by step for ages in a sim, then log hundreds of hours of flight time in the model, before being responsible for that flight.

If one had that much training with any machine, it wouldnt be unfair to call them an expert. They have some of the best training of any profession and a design concept which has been aided by computing innovation, but the basic systems largely unchanged.

I dont think there should be any room for complacency or inadequate performance. If I flew something that could cause more damage to the ground than a missile, kill me and hundreds of other people and sped along at hundreds of miles an hour, I wouldnt do so unless I felt I could deal with every eventuality within my control.

Exactly my point - the guy had 3000+ hours total flight time and countless hours in a sim. You don't get into the right hand seat for a major carrier unless you're highly capable. It's akin to forgetting how to walk when it's raining

[TimberWolf]

Pilots all over the world are saying to themselves 'WTF'.

From the smallest to the biggest the fundamentals of airmanship just don't change.

A couple of idiots fcked up big time.

My take, from the link to the verbal transcript given at the start of the thread, is that only one pilot ****ed up (or committed suicide). The second co-pilot being forgiven for believing (under the circumstances) that the first co-pilot had pushed the stick back as he had insisted, when in fact he hadn't. He then incorrectly concluded that they had already tried lowering the nose, and he too became confused. And by the time the captain came back there was no altitude to do anything except to go for pushing the nose up once again. It's amazing how quickly the crisis occurred after the captain went for a rest break. Amazing bad luck maybe.

[wim121]

Another FSX warrior

Never played fsx, last time I played a flight sim was fs2000 I think .....


It is a fair statement to make though. Pilots log hundreds of hours at least, before they even get a commercial license. Then if they are trained on a new plane, they are trained step by step for ages in a sim, then log hundreds of hours of flight time in the model, before being responsible for that flight.

If one had that much training with any machine, it wouldnt be unfair to call them an expert. They have some of the best training of any profession and a design concept which has been aided by computing innovation, but the basic systems largely unchanged.

I dont think there should be any room for complacency or inadequate performance. If I flew something that could cause more damage to the ground than a missile, kill me and hundreds of other people and sped along at hundreds of miles an hour, I wouldnt do so unless I felt I could deal with every eventuality within my control.