Reply to: Welcome to Belgium, hello and goodbye...

[Joe Black]

there is not much difference between IT and stacking tupperwares. every it contractor does it one day.
apparently belgium does not want to hear about illegal immigrants, especially from the other side of the channel.

Don't have a problem with the guy who used to sell tupperware learning to be an IT consultant, likewise vice versa.

Do have a problem when someones experience selling tupperware means he can become a self-employed IT consultant while I can't do either...

[Joe Black]

Thanks Rantor.

Going to discuss this with a solicitor tomorrow, very keen chappy as I should know since his office is just across the road and come Xmas, New Year, whatever you'd see him working until late at night. Seems to think this sort of thing should be got into the papers, which while part of me thinks yep, hammer the b*stards every which way come Sunday, another part wonders what affect that might have on future employment prospects...

Anyway been doing a bit of Google-ling and found this (the wonders of the internet!):

ruling against belgium deportation of eu nationals


summary:

Judgment

1 By its application, the Commission of the European Communities asks the Court to declare that:

– by making the right of residence of citizens of the European Union subject to the requirement that they have sufficient personal resources, the Kingdom of Belgium has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 18 EC and Council Directive 90/364/EEC of 28 June 1990 on the right of residence (OJ 1990 L 180, p. 26),

– by making provision for automatic service of an order to leave Belgian territory on citizens of the Union who do not produce within the prescribed period the documents required to obtain a residence permit, the Kingdom of Belgium has failed to fulfil its obligations under Article 2 of Directive 90/364, Article 4 of Council Directive 68/360/EEC of 15 October 1968 on the abolition of restrictions on movement and residence within the Community for workers of Member States and their families (OJ, English Special Edition 1968 (II), p. 485), Article 4 of Council Directive 73/148/EEC of 21 May 1973 on the abolition of restrictions on movement and residence within the Community for nationals of Member States with regard to establishment and the provision of services (OJ 1973 L 172, p. 14), Article 2 of Council Directive 93/96/EEC of 29 October 1993 on the right of residence for students (OJ 1993 L 317, p. 59) and Article 2 of Council Directive 90/365/EEC of 28 June 1990 on the right of residence for employees and self-employed persons who have ceased their occupational activity (OJ 1990 L 180, p. 28).

[sappatz]

belgium

What p*sses me off is the fact some tw*t with a degree in 'Belgian Tupperware' wouldn't have any problem setting up an IT consultancy tomorrow morning, while my 15+ years working for banks/insurance, the gov't (on EU projects no less) seems to count for b*gger all, and that having been paying taxes/social security et al for the last 18 months - "because this is you main place of residence" - apparently I "don't live here".

there is not much difference between IT and stacking tupperwares. every it contractor does it one day.
apparently belgium does not want to hear about illegal immigrants, especially from the other side of the channel.

[Rantor]

Guichet at the commune's Bureau d'Etrangers

...armed with the letter from Quick Start, the chuckle-inducingly named org I used to process my application. I got my accountant to wheedle thisout of them.

I also had proof that I was paying social taxes (no TVA number so no income taxes paid at that stage) plus the SIS card thingy proving that I had medical cover.

If you are working thorugh a management company in Belgium, you will probably have a well-connected accountant who may be able to talk to some people. I know mine proved invaluable and stopped me from going down to the commune without being prepared.

[NoddY]

What you need is Charles Clarke heading up their immigration department.

[Joe Black]

The Flemish follow Rules whilst the French work around them.

Would disagree, certainly given my experience where every Flemish man and his dog seem happy to break the rules when it suits them.

Joe in mode!

I eventually went round with a letter from the quasi-gov outfit who process the Independent applications to the effect that it was in progress plus details from the mutuelle showing I was registered for social taxes and had min legal health cover.

Rantor, are you refering to the guichet/loket?

[Joe Black]

Why didn't you get this done in French?
You must be in Flanders (eeuggh) (?)

Don't think it'd matter whether it was in French, Dutch or Chinese.

When I worked in Brussels years ago most of the people I met/worked with were in any case from the Flemish part.

What p*sses me off is the fact some tw*t with a degree in 'Belgian Tupperware' wouldn't have any problem setting up an IT consultancy tomorrow morning, while my 15+ years working for banks/insurance, the gov't (on EU projects no less) seems to count for b*gger all, and that having been paying taxes/social security et al for the last 18 months - "because this is you main place of residence" - apparently I "don't live here".

Joe in "seriously ******* p*ssed off" mode.

PS: yep, I have an appointment with a solicitor tomorrow first thing

[sunnysan]

This is b3lltulip

It kind of makes sense why all and sundry come to the UK, because nobody really has to put up with this kind cr@p. I would even think it may be easier in some cases for a non-EU national to stay in the UK than an UK-UE national to live in some other countries in the EU.

Really poor show by the Belgians considering that the HQ of the EU is actually located there. United Europe my @rse. Just more paper-work so more shiftless beaurocrats can take a slice of your hard earned dosh.

[Rantor]

I got around this at the last minute

They had my degree/application for seven months and told me it would take up to another six months to process since the degree paper was in Latin!

In the meantime the commune was making all these noises about not giving a five yr id card until the registration/tva number appeared and the temp id expired.

I eventually went round with a letter from the quasi-gov outfit who process the Independent applications to the effect that it was in progress plus details from the mutuelle showing I was registered for social taxes and had min legal health cover. In the end, I bored them into giving me the card even though I technically did not fit the criteria (no TVA number.) Having said that it was in Ixelles which has thirty percent 'other-eu' population.

They are trying it on with my gf now as she couldn't be arsed to go along and sort hers out around this time so both me and my two yr old have reseincy but she is technically illegal (but not working)

The BE gov has just had a ruling against it in the European Court for just this sort of crap as it makes a mockery of the whole EU freedom of thing. Countries do have the right to kick you out but basically only if you are a crim, a mental or otherwise a threat to the state.

Your problem might largely be due to living in a Felmish commune as they have an increasingly chippy attitude towards non vlaams of any persuasion.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Why didn't you get this done in French?
You must be in Flanders (eeuggh) (?)

The Flemish follow Rules whilst the French work around them.

Best summed up by a remark I heard recently.

Dutch businessman in Rotterdam states that in Holland everything is possible but somehow nothing can be done.

His Belgian counterpart in Brussels states that here nothing is possible but somehow we shall make a deal .

[Fleetwood]

Why didn't you get this done in French?
You must be in Flanders (eeuggh) (?)

[BlasterBates]

hmm looks like a lawyer might be useful. They can't throw you out but they might be able to prevent from being self-employed. Unclear, I'm afraid. It would have been better to do this under foreigner short-term thingmy bob rule.

[Joe Black]

There is a law there that requires having a degree in order to work on your own? Surely this contravenes EU laws, unless the profession you want to do is in list of regulated ones, ie like lawyers, etc.

Indeed there is.

To be registered as self-employed you have to show that either you completed some form of higher education, i.e. university, technical college etc, or you have completed a course in 'business managment' here.

Two problems a) the courses are invariably in French or Dutch, and b) while just about any Belgium Degree/Diploma is recognised - yep you can set up as an IT consultant having a degree in Greek mythology - anything from any other country depends on some bureaucrat's approval...or, for some strange reason, if you've worked as a fisherman/farmer for x years this is also good.

[DimPrawn]

Come back here as an asylum seeker, murder and rape, get let out, get a free house, choose life, choose not to choose life, etc

[The Lone Gunman]

Take your notice, go down to the commune and go through the hoops of leaving. Make sure you have a ticket to show them.
Then just carry on working and dont pay any tax.
You may want to move.

Obviously you run the risk of legal proceedings, but life has to have some excitement.