Reply to: Pros and cons of the UK leaving the EU

[BlasterBates]

The simple rule for running a proper economy is to marginalise socialist influence (in other words entitlement). The EU is now being run by unaccountable socialists obsessed with feathering their own nests instead of creating and encouraging businesses.

There's no EU rule which stipulates how much benefit you pay. Check out Romania and the Czech Republic. It's fully in the hands of the government, if you don't want to pay social security, you don't have to pay. Obviously those in the Eurozone need to bail out the the profligate spenders, but that's only to protect their private banks who have leant way too much, not as people to suggest to save the Euro, so far it has cost nothing, they're just guarantees. Even without the Euro there would be a IMF and probably EU bail out, just simply to prevent a Lehman's style collapse of the banking system. The reason why the French and Germans are doing it is because the French banks are highly exposed, which would also bring the German banking system crashing down.

In fact it's the EU who are pushing Greece to cut their social spending.

[DodgyAgent]

Too much made of leaving the EU will somehow magically make Britain more competitive and better. The pre-EU record of Britain is absolutely abysmal. By 1973 Britain had most of it's industry nationalised, the pound had been devalued several times, but to no avail, strikes were normal, people drove around in British Leyland cars, and many people lived in council housing squalor. Britain was basically heading for bankruptcy and did eventually go cap in hand to the IMF. All the competitive reforms were actually made while Britain was already a member of the EU.

In other words you can run your country well and competitively even if you're in the EU. There's no EU rule that forces Governments to waste money, and the EU contribution is tiny compared to the rest of the budget.

The "leave the EU" argument is just a populist argument to grandstand on.

The simple rule for running a proper economy is to marginalise socialist influence (in other words entitlement). The EU is now being run by unaccountable socialists obsessed with feathering their own nests instead of creating and encouraging businesses.

[DodgyAgent]

Typical agent, wanting something for nothing.

Manufacturing powerhouses employing highly skilled technicians eat up recessions for breakfast.

Pooperscooper
Did you pick some of that "poop" up and pour it into your ear by mistake? or did you do it deliberately to up your IQ?

[BlasterBates]

Too much made of leaving the EU will somehow magically make Britain more competitive and better. The pre-EU record of Britain is absolutely abysmal. By 1973 Britain had most of it's industry nationalised, the pound had been devalued several times, but to no avail, strikes were normal, people drove around in British Leyland cars, and many people lived in council housing squalor. Britain was basically heading for bankruptcy and did eventually go cap in hand to the IMF. All the competitive reforms were actually made while Britain was already a member of the EU.

In other words you can run your country well and competitively even if you're in the EU. There's no EU rule that forces Governments to waste money, and the EU contribution is tiny compared to the rest of the budget.

The "leave the EU" argument is just a populist argument to grandstand on.

[sasguru]

Manufacturing powerhouses employing highly skilled technicians eat up recessions for breakfast.

You mean like Japan which has had a stagnant economy since about 1989?
Cretin.

[EternalOptimist]

Pros -
we will be free to make our own bed, which we will have to lie in on our own.
we will not have close formal links with spendthrift partners, so no obligations
we will be able to move quicker on our feet, vis a vis trading partners who are on the up
we wont have to get involved in things that are not in our interest

Cons -
We will lose clout, not being in a big trading bloc
Extrication would be costly and messy and politically painful (there are a lot of europhiles)
No one has explained which 'barmy eu laws' we would not have introduced any way

[swamp]

Leaving the EU now would be a bit pointless since the core 17 members are buggering off and forming a tighter Euro union. We are effectively in a club of about 8 countries, most of which are small and pointless. The task at hand is whether the UK can shape this outer union into something we've always wanted: a genuine unfettered free trade area.

[VectraMan]

What an extraordinary statement! what other way is there to get out of a recession>, or should we do what Greece, italy, Spain, Ireland and France do and simply keep borrowing until we go bust.

I thought we did.

My point (which you misquoted) was that it didn't work. Being out of the Euro didn't help us avoid the recession, and the recession for us was longer than for the Euro countries. Which makes the argument that we need our own currency so we can choose to devalue and boost exports a little weak (perhaps because it only works if your customers aren't also in the tulip at the same time).

Actually I think the best way out of recession is yes, to borrow and spend money on infrastructure etc. But that assumes you don't already have crippling debts from years of irresponsible spend-happy governments. Which after all is the real problem of Greece, Italy etc. and not being part of the Euro as the EU-haters will have you believe.

[scooterscot]

What an extraordinary statement! what other way is there to get out of a recession>.

Typical agent, wanting something for nothing.

Manufacturing powerhouses employing highly skilled technicians eat up recessions for breakfast.

[DodgyAgent]

with independence we can choose to make ourselves poorer to get out of recession.

The only pro I can see to us leaving the EU is it will shut up the EU moaners.

What an extraordinary statement! what other way is there to get out of a recession>, or should we do what Greece, italy, Spain, Ireland and France do and simply keep borrowing until we go bust.

[VectraMan]

The priority for the first class EU countries is always going to be paying for the poor countries in the Eurozone.

FTFY

No matter how you look at it, any kind of trade agreement will lead to a certain amount of wealth transfer from the richer to the poorer nations. The alternative is protectionism, and that just makes everybody miserable. Do you want to drive a car made by British Leyland?

[Doggy Styles]

The priority for the first class EU countries is always going to be paying for the poor countries in the Eurozone.

FTFY

[VectraMan]

What I'm saying is that in a two tier EU we're going to be in the second tier by choice, and I don't think the first tier countries are going to accept us sitting on the sidelines while demanding an equal share of power. Whatever happens we're going to lose influence.

I agree. We're already in a second tier, or second class EU because of not having the currency. The priority for the first class EU countries is always going to be the Eurozone.

The argument against us being in the Euro seems to be that with independence we can choose to make ourselves poorer to get out of recession. Well we did that and we still had a deeper and longer recession than France or Germany, and now we're facing a double-dip because of the currency we're supposedly independent of.

The only pro I can see to us leaving the EU is it will shut up the EU moaners.

[scooterscot]

Politicians are in the bankers pockets, which is why, even 2 years after the credit-crunch, the banking industry has still not been reformed and are carrying on as if the global financial meltdown was nothing to do with them.

Strange then how many politicians seem to be pro-Europe. Europe is not quite so reliant on the financial sector as the UK is, and so are more likely to push for the necessary reforms. I will laugh if the EU forces some strict rules on the UK finance industry that shafts the greedy arrogant over-paid City boys who have done so much damage to this country whilst enriching themselves massively at the expense of the rest of us. I suspect that in that event, we would find that the politicians were suddenly able to stand up to the EU when necessary in order to help their rich chums in the banking industry. Absolute shower, the lot of them!

WHS - UK democracy is in a sorry state it'll take outside influences to change the way the city operates. A government so week it cannot act and yet defends the very scoundrels that got us into this mess. Ralph and Huey

Being British used to mean something, an idea that was keenly understand across the land, tolerance, looking after thy neighbour. Now we're nothing more than pawns of the banks centralised across a single city. Little wonder the country is at risk form breaking up. What a mess.

[doodab]

Precisely. The term was chosen to match the bias of the writer. In which case, I'd say those stuck in the middle of the EU are second class.

What I'm saying is that in a two tier EU we're going to be in the second tier by choice, and I don't think the first tier countries are going to accept us sitting on the sidelines while demanding an equal share of power. Whatever happens we're going to lose influence.