Reply to: Is "911" the United States "Holocaust"?

[Incognito]

I'm fully aware that Tom Clancy writes fiction. However, have a look at the credits in any Tom Clancy book. You'll find that he does a lot of research. Where as HG Wells didn't have access to NASA, Clancy did have access to credible military sources.

Thanks for being a twat, although your efforts go mostly unrewarded please be assured that they are greatly appreciated.

Jeezuz H Christ.

In the words of that immortal film 'You're in more need of a blowjob than any white man in history'

**** off and enjoy your weekend.

[Churchill]

H. G. Wells wrote about little green men in flying saucers pillaging the world as well. That's why it's called 'Fiction'.

I'm fully aware that Tom Clancy writes fiction. However, have a look at the credits in any Tom Clancy book. You'll find that he does a lot of research. Where as HG Wells didn't have access to NASA, Clancy did have access to credible military sources.

Thanks for being a twat, although your efforts go mostly unrewarded please be assured that they are greatly appreciated.

[AtW]

So what's the latest results from CUK Fruitloop Self-Census 2011: 4-5 idiots and one very stupid dog?

Thank you for taking part in it, tin foil hats will be dispatched as promised

[TimberWolf]

9:01 to 9:02: A manager from the FAA's New York Center tells the Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Herndon, Virginia, "We have several situations going on here. It's escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us. . . We're, we're involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here."

Perhaps it was this guy:

Ben Sliney was one of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration's National Operation Managers. His first day in this position was September 11, 2001, and he was responsible for ordering a National Ground Stop across United States airspace in response to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 [sic].

Talk about a bad first day. "Bye honey, I'm off now, wish me luck". "Okay, luvidubs, have a great day. I'm sure it will work out great".

Sliney has since left the FAA to practice law

[Incognito]

On another note….US govt had indications of plans to hijack U.S. airliners and use them as weapons, as early as 1995...

Norad ran four major exercises a year, all had to involve planes. It doesn't leave much to the imagination that eventually they're going to run out of ideas involving planes. There isn't really much you can do with them once you've done the usual 'flying' bit.

Anyway, relevant bit below:

The exercises differed from the Sept. 11 attacks in one important respect: The planes in the simulation were coming from a foreign country.

Until Sept. 11, NORAD was expected to defend the United States and Canada from aircraft based elsewhere. After the attacks, that responsibility broadened to include flights that originated in the two countries.

But there were exceptions in the early drills, including one operation, planned in July 2001 and conducted later, that involved planes from airports in Utah and Washington state that were "hijacked." Those planes were escorted by U.S. and Canadian aircraft to airfields in British Columbia and Alaska.

USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

Tom Clancy wrote about a 747 hitting Capitol Hill in "Executive Orders"... Published in 1996...

H. G. Wells wrote about little green men in flying saucers pillaging the world as well. That's why it's called 'Fiction'.

[Incognito]

I’m not talking about talking action against the threat, I’m saying I find it hard to believe that norad was not prepared to even TRACK the threat, especially since the threat was identified in 1995 and they actually ran war games to counter this.

Come to think of it, if they ran this simulation: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center - they would have pretty soon realized that they cannot track any of those threats…. If we believe norad…

You're as bad as Terry the Taliban from EC4N.

National Airspace System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

50,000 flights use NAS services each day

The FAA systems rely on the planes transponders 'squawking' to correlate their position with radar and plot their flight pattern. All four transponders on the 911 aircraft were either switched off or changed to transmit a false signal. At that point things started getting messy, loss of communication, confusion over what was happening, conflicting reports all led to the information coming in being useless and/or directed to the wrong people.

Firstly, were the aircraft hijacked or crashed, was the transponder maybe faulty, if hijacked then list of demands first surely, etc, etc.

To sit and think that people in the US sat and watched these planes fly right into the WTC and knew about it is farcical. Look at the ******* wiki leaks for gods sake. This story would have got out there by now, but it's only being promulgated by fruitloops like you.

And as for Norad, the whole point of the early warning system is to track and INTERCEPT potential targets. The plan was that an unidentified plane would not get into US airspace. If however, the tulip hit the fan and there were planes and ICBMs all over the shop, then AWACS would provide as much tracking capability as you require. You need to perceive the threat first and more importantly get that information to someone who has the authority to make command decisions (pre-empting your or Terry's next stupid question about why didn't they use it on 911 then).

Timelines:

8:37:52 First report of plane hijack (FL 11)
8:46 F15's launched (target FL 11)
8:46:30 FL 11 hits WTC
8:50 NEADS (NE Air Defence Sector) informed 'a plane' has hit WTC
9:01 to 9:02: A manager from the FAA's New York Center tells the Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Herndon, Virginia, "We have several situations going on here. It's escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us. . . We're, we're involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here."
9:01: FAA's New York Center contacts New York terminal approach control and asks for help in locating Flight 175.
9:03:02 FL 175 crashes WTC (it hasn't been reported as hijacked)
9:03 FAA's New York Center notifies NORAD (NEADS) of the hijacking of Flight 175
9:24: The FAA notifies NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector about the suspected hijacking of Flight 77. The FAA and NORAD establish an open line to discuss Flight 77, and shortly thereafter Flight 93
9:28: Hijackers storm the cockpit on Flight 93 and take over the flight. The entry of the hijackers is overheard by flight controllers at Cleveland
9:33 to 9:34: Tower supervisor at Reagan National Airport tells Secret Service operations center at the White House that "an aircraft [is] coming at you and not talking with us," referring to Flight 77. The White House is about to be evacuated when the tower reports that Flight 77 has turned and is approaching Reagan National Airport.
9:34: The FAA's Command Center relays information concerning Flight 93 to FAA headquarters
9:35: Flight 93 reverses direction over Ohio and starts flying eastwards.
9:35: Based on a report that Flight 77 had turned again and was circling back toward the District of Columbia, the Secret Service orders the immediate evacuation of the Vice President from the White House
9:37:46: Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon
9:45: United States airspace is shut down (Try and imagine just how much of an impact that would have caused on the situation)
9:49: The FAA Command Center at Herndon suggests that someone at FAA headquarters should decide whether to request military assistance with Flight 93. Ultimately, the FAA makes no request before it crashes
9:57: Passenger revolt begins on Flight 93
9:59:04: The South Tower of the WTC begins to collapse (Try and imagine just how much of an impact that would have caused on the situation)
10:03:11: United Airlines Flight 93 crashes

Over in the space of an hour and a half.

[AtW]

norad was not prepared to even TRACK the threat

Look, nobody knew what exactly happened until it was too late - it's not like airplane was hijacked in air over Atlantic and terrorists had negotiations and only after many hours of flight time decided to hit the towers.

There was simply not enough time - Flight 175 crashed into towers 14 minutes after air controllers noticed that transponders were switched off (4 extra minutes).

Maybe they can do it now, maybe someone else has got this task rather than NORAD, either way no conspiracy here - unless you are a complete idiot who's got nothing to do in life but seek for conspiracy where there is none.

[AtW]

That’s strange, Lloyds of London doesn’t list Iran-Iraq as a war zone.

Yes, neither those US hikers who went there:

Bail for US hikers in Iran $US500,000 each

War zone for normal people is place where not to go or get out from: that includes Iran area, and a fair few places in UK.

[Paddy]

Iran-Iraq area is a war zone even now.

I am not saying shooting down civilian aircraft is justified, what I am saying is that situation is very different compared to New York - they did not exactly had AEGIS ship on duty to shoot down aircraft flying into the towers.

That’s strange, Lloyds of London doesn’t list Iran-Iraq as a war zone. Perhaps you better phone and advise them with your greater knowledge. By the way you better give Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian Airlines and British Midland a call as they fly to Tehran and Bagdad

[sal626]

Nobody in the military wanted to give order to shoot down civilian aircraft with fellow US citizens even in simulated game - that would have been an illegal order.

Personally I'd be worried more about military that easily shoots down such aircraft than other way around.

I’m not talking about talking action against the threat, I’m saying I find it hard to believe that norad was not prepared to even TRACK the threat, especially since the threat was identified in 1995 and they actually ran war games to counter this.

Come to think of it, if they ran this simulation: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center - they would have pretty soon realized that they cannot track any of those threats…. If we believe norad…

[AtW]

So why do these drills if they didn’t expect civilian airlines to become a threat....

Nobody in the military wanted to give order to shoot down civilian aircraft with fellow US citizens even in simulated game - that would have been an illegal order.

Personally I'd be worried more about military that easily shoots down such aircraft than other way around.

[Churchill]

Even if they had military radars that only track military threats – not civilian aircraft, its pretty stupid if they only track it to the border, and not over US airspace…

On another note….US govt had indications of plans to hijack U.S. airliners and use them as weapons, as early as 1995...

Also: In April 2001, NORAD ran a war game in which the Pentagon was to become incapacitated; a NORAD planner proposed the simulated crash of a hijacked foreign commercial airliner into the Pentagon but the Joints Chiefs of Staff rejected that scenario as "too unrealistic" - WebCite query result

And.. "In the two years before the September 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic” - USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

So why do these drills if they didn’t expect civilian airlines to become a threat....

I mean, even the writers of the Lone Gunmen thought of this....

Tom Clancy wrote about a 747 hitting Capitol Hill in "Executive Orders"... Published in 1996...

[sal626]

They are not stupid, they've got military radars but they were not expecting civilian aircraft of which there are plenty to become such a threat.

Even if they had military radars that only track military threats – not civilian aircraft, its pretty stupid if they only track it to the border, and not over US airspace…

On another note….US govt had indications of plans to hijack U.S. airliners and use them as weapons, as early as 1995...

Also: In April 2001, NORAD ran a war game in which the Pentagon was to become incapacitated; a NORAD planner proposed the simulated crash of a hijacked foreign commercial airliner into the Pentagon but the Joints Chiefs of Staff rejected that scenario as "too unrealistic" - WebCite query result

And.. "In the two years before the September 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic” - USATODAY.com - NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

So why do these drills if they didn’t expect civilian airlines to become a threat....

I mean, even the writers of the Lone Gunmen thought of this....

[AtW]

If that is true, I find it amazing that US military can be so stupid

They are not stupid, they've got military radars but they were not expecting civilian aircraft of which there are plenty to become such a threat.

[sal626]

It's designed to deal with military targets (including flock of wild geese) in mind that would attempt to approach USA.

If NORAD people say they could not do it then that must be so because it's easier to verify given known technical capabilities and proper expert advice on the matter that you won't find on internet forum.

If that is true, I find it amazing that US military can be so stupid and arrogant that they did not plan on any threat actually crossing the border….