Reply to: A tax by any other name

[zathras]

Well then lets pull these buses from the street!

Good idea. Lets bring back the Routemaster. Or the derivative that still runs on the 242/26/48/55 route.

[Mailman]

Well then lets pull these buses from the street!

BTW, my car got hit by one a couple weeks ago. So far the feckers havent replied to any of my insurance companies phone calls or letters for their insurance details!

Mailman

[zathras]

Yeah but they managed this with even smaller buses in the past didnt they?

Mailman

Then they did n't have to go through the equivelent of three floors packed to the gills with people, and because of the design it would take considerably longer for them to make it down the bus.

[Mailman]

Have you actually been on a bendy bus?

It's packed to the gills with folks at the start and end of the office day. It's hard enough to actually get to the Oyster Card readers if your a passenger let alone have some poor sap trying to squeeze through and check people's cards on his reader.

Yeah but they managed this with even smaller buses in the past didnt they?

Mailman

[zathras]

Easily resolved through the simple expedient of having a ticket conductor on the bus!
Mailman

Have you actually been on a bendy bus?

It's packed to the gills with folks at the start and end of the office day. It's hard enough to actually get to the Oyster Card readers if your a passenger let alone have some poor sap trying to squeeze through and check people's cards on his reader.

[Mailman]

Let me see
2. The Ticket cheats. It is impossible for the driver to see who has actually used their Oyster Card.

Easily resolved through the simple expedient of having a ticket conductor on the bus!

Actually...there was an interesting article in the well known social anthropology paper called the metro where someone had identified a direct link between the decline in social behaviour to the decline of groups that were used to ensure enforce the rules etc. Groups like bus conductors and park rangers were able to enforce certain "social" laws but now they have gone the way of the dodo these rules and laws are no longer enforced...hence the increase in anti-social behavour etc

BUT I digress!

Mailman

[swamp]

Let me see

1. They have been placed on routes that it is not possible for them to get around. Thereby requiring a number of one way systems etc to allow them a route that avoids the tighter corners in London

2. The Ticket cheats. It is impossible for the driver to see who has actually used their Oyster Card.

3. Getting off and on is made more difficult because the same doors are used for both. Just like the tube it seems totally alien to some people that in order to fit more people on it would be a good idea if those who wanted to get off could do so.

4. The total number of seats on routes where bendy buses have been introduced has gone down. For example to get home from the tube I can take the 26, 48, 242 or 149. Only the latter is a bendy bus. While on the first three I can usually get a seat. On the 149 the times I have could be counted on one hand.

5. They are a danger to cyclists.

6. They use more road space, block junctions and increase congestion.

7. They are no good to the majority of disabled people (i.e. the ones who aren't in wheelchairs and now have to stand)

8. They catch fire.

[zathras]

What's wrong with bendy buses

What's the problem with the bendy bus?

apart from all the ticket cheats boarding at the back, looking around for the Revenue Inspector, pretending to Oyster.

Let me see

1. They have been placed on routes that it is not possible for them to get around. Thereby requiring a number of one way systems etc to allow them a route that avoids the tighter corners in London

2. The Ticket cheats. It is impossible for the driver to see who has actually used their Oyster Card.

3. Getting off and on is made more difficult because the same doors are used for both. Just like the tube it seems totally alien to some people that in order to fit more people on it would be a good idea if those who wanted to get off could do so.

4. The total number of seats on routes where bendy buses have been introduced has gone down. For example to get home from the tube I can take the 26, 48, 242 or 149. Only the latter is a bendy bus. While on the first three I can usually get a seat. On the 149 the times I have could be counted on one hand.

[Mailman]

It goes to Kens council, which is a government body.

Mailman

[threaded]

What makes you say it is a tax? The money doesn't go to any government body as tax does.

[Mailman]

Cobblers, read Article 36 of the Vienna Convention. The Yanks should pay.

Article 36 is a moot point as it has already been agreed between the receiving state (The United Kingdon) and the sending state (America) that no taxes are due.

Solly...close but no cigar!

Mailman

[AtW]

You should have used some other toll in arguement - M6 toll is private, so its not tax for certain, however in some places in the UK (Scotland?) they have toll bridges that are owned by the council, so question is whether its a tax or not?

I'd say its PROBABLY not tax - its a very specific charge for a very specific service, say when BT was owned by the Govt the prices it charged were not really tax, it was charge for service.

So, question is why CC charge is tax? Because CC is too generic - CC is about giving right to travel in wide area, this is very similar to Road Tax, which appleis to the whole country.

So, either way I look at it its a tax, kudos to US Embassy for not chickening out on this one.

[AtW]

OK. So if it were outsourced ... ?

Its who the beneficiary that counts - the tax may be collected by a private company (like it happens with CC), but its just work under contract - the beneficiary is the state in case of CC, and thus its a tax - no doubt about it.

Personally I think the CC charge is probably the best way forward, its probably one of a better way of taxation, but its still a tax.

[expat]

What is a tax? According to Wikipedia it is defined as:

"A tax is a charge or other levy imposed on an individual or a legal entity by a state or a functional equivalent of a state (e.g., tribes, secessionist movements or revolutionary movements). Taxes could also be imposed by a subnational entity."

Is the company that makes money from M6 Toll a state or its functional equivalent? No - its a private company, thus the money they want is not a tax. Ken however gets the money from CC charge thus its a tax.

OK. So if it were outsourced ... ?

[AtW]

Same question as before: if it were a toll barrier would it still be a tax?

What is a tax? According to Wikipedia it is defined as:

"A tax is a charge or other levy imposed on an individual or a legal entity by a state or a functional equivalent of a state (e.g., tribes, secessionist movements or revolutionary movements). Taxes could also be imposed by a subnational entity."

Is the company that makes money from M6 Toll a state or its functional equivalent? No - its a private company, thus the money they want is not a tax. Ken however gets the money from CC charge thus its a tax.