Originally posted by VectraMan
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Reply to: London protest today
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Previously on "London protest today"
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Originally posted by DennyWrong. Communism is a global phenomenon not a national one. One one has ever experienced communism in full throttle they've only experienced haphazard attempts to create it and then bungling it completely. What we seen in North Korea, or what was the Soviet Union, Communist China is not communism at all. Not even close to it.
All of these countries operate a state capitalist model (or State socialist model, as it is often inappropriately called).
If we all genuinely lived in a state of communism or true socialism (which is the same as true communism) we wouldn't have to worry about self-reliance, ambition, individualism because everyone would genuinely be free because the concept of property ownership, trade, scare resources etc. would be obscolete.
And what would motivate us to do something? And who would decide who had what and when? And why would I take responsibility for an item if a few hours later Joe Bloggs will take it for his use? What you propose is naive and simplistic idealistic nonsense that fails to take into account how real people behave. Something tells me that you are in your early 20's.
A friend now in his early fourties revealed to me that he voted for Arthur Scargill (I forget the party name) in a fairly recent election. He is an academic. Surprise surprise.
Actually you say that we have never had true Communism, but I would have thought that the Kibbutz movement in Israel was close, and some isolated tribal societies probably also come close.
Originally posted by DennyUnfortunately that is unlikely to happen - at least for a while yet, if ever some may think, depending on your view of human nature.
Originally posted by DennyWhile I'm in political theory mode: what some of you often call socialism, under the Labour Party or in the worst examples, Blairism, is not socialism at all. The old Parliamentary Labour party was about Social Democracy. Blair doesn't even concede to that model even.
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Originally posted by stackpoleNo, not greed and corruption. I think you'll find that the greed and corruption was at the top.
No, that's a load of b0ll0cks. What gets in the way is the fact that communism is unnatural, abnormal. It stifles self-reliance, ambition, individualism and freedom.
All of these countries operate a state capitalist model (or State socialist model, as it is often inappropriately called).
If we all genuinely lived in a state of communism or true socialism (which is the same as true communism) we wouldn't have to worry about self-reliance, ambition, individualism because everyone would genuinely be free because the concept of property ownership, trade, scare resources etc. would be obscolete.
Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen - at least for a while yet, if ever some may think, depending on your view of human nature.
While I'm in political theory mode: what some of you often call socialism, under the Labour Party or in the worst examples, Blairism, is not socialism at all. The old Parliamentary Labour party was about Social Democracy. Blair doesn't even concede to that model even.Last edited by Denny; 19 March 2006, 19:31.
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Originally posted by bfgChina, India, Most of Africa, South America, Eastern Europe - mostly to the advantage of western multi-nationals. Just do a quick google on child labour, indentured servitude or slavery if you want find out who is gaining from it.
What is shameful is the way that some multi-nationals invest in countries with such poor human rights and safety records.
However, who are we to knock the creation of industries in poor countries. That is their path to development, which will fund education and health, and so on. South Korea is one such country that is now a modern economy as a result of industrialisation (though a friend moans about the absurd work hours).
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I only said espoused, not implemented. Suffice it to say that in my view it goes way too far.
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Sorry, I thought xog was talking about "Western capitalism" being unbridled.
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Originally posted by Clog II The AvengerI see nothing wrong with communist ideology i.e everyone should work and contribute to society in an equal manner.
Originally posted by Clog II The AvengerA communist party in one country does not mean that it agrees with the policies of a communist party in another country
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Originally posted by stackpoleWhere does anyone practice "unbridled capitalism"? I can't think of anywhere, and I don't know of anyone who espouses it.
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Originally posted by xoggothBy way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.
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Originally posted by VectraManAnd pleanty of non-communist dictators have done the same. Perhaps the issue is that they were dictators, not that they were communists.
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Very true. In theory at any rate.
The reality of it is that big business, in combination with supposedly democratic governments, are just as unresponsive to the needs of the masses as any commisars ever were.
The only difference is that the former PRETEND to give a tulip.
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Originally posted by FungusAnd as mentioned Mao and Stalin murdered millions of people, all in the name of the people.
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Originally posted by xoggothBy way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.
All that is ever pushed is economic progress but human nature has many other needs too. It is capitalism that has given us globalisation where individuals don't matter and uncontrolled immigration that has destroyed any sense of nationhood.
Whereas Communism is a one party state that serves only to enrich the party faithful. The idea that everyone was equal was never true in Russia, or China. And the hundreds of thousands of Chinese peasants displaced from their land to create the Ynagtse dam testifies to the kindness of the Communists.
And as mentioned Mao and Stalin murdered millions of people, all in the name of the people.
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By way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.
All that is ever pushed is economic progress but human nature has many other needs too. It is capitalism that has given us globalisation where individuals don't matter and uncontrolled immigration that has destroyed any sense of nationhood.
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Originally posted by Clog II The AvengerA communist party in one country does not mean that it agrees with the policies of a communist party in another country, just as capitalist Germany may not agree with capitalist USA’s policies
Different countries may have different versions of communism but the end result remains the same, low productivity, high central government control, high mortality rates...and the list goes on.
Mailman
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