Reply to: London protest today

[AlfredJPruffock]

And pleanty of non-communist dictators have done the same. Perhaps the issue is that they were dictators, not that they were communists.

Totalitarianism under any guise , whether under the banner of Communism or Capitalism tends to, sooner or later leads to mass murder.

[Fungus]

Wrong. Communism is a global phenomenon not a national one. One one has ever experienced communism in full throttle they've only experienced haphazard attempts to create it and then bungling it completely. What we seen in North Korea, or what was the Soviet Union, Communist China is not communism at all. Not even close to it.

All of these countries operate a state capitalist model (or State socialist model, as it is often inappropriately called).

If we all genuinely lived in a state of communism or true socialism (which is the same as true communism) we wouldn't have to worry about self-reliance, ambition, individualism because everyone would genuinely be free because the concept of property ownership, trade, scare resources etc. would be obscolete.

Okey dokey. Utopia here we come then.

And what would motivate us to do something? And who would decide who had what and when? And why would I take responsibility for an item if a few hours later Joe Bloggs will take it for his use? What you propose is naive and simplistic idealistic nonsense that fails to take into account how real people behave. Something tells me that you are in your early 20's.

A friend now in his early fourties revealed to me that he voted for Arthur Scargill (I forget the party name) in a fairly recent election. He is an academic. Surprise surprise.

Actually you say that we have never had true Communism, but I would have thought that the Kibbutz movement in Israel was close, and some isolated tribal societies probably also come close.

Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen - at least for a while yet, if ever some may think, depending on your view of human nature.

Thank goodness. It's a frightening thought.

While I'm in political theory mode: what some of you often call socialism, under the Labour Party or in the worst examples, Blairism, is not socialism at all. The old Parliamentary Labour party was about Social Democracy. Blair doesn't even concede to that model even.

I suspect you are not the first to express that idea. Even Blair said in his interview by Tame Lacky on TV that he has not been called a Socialist for quite a few years.

[Denny]

No, not greed and corruption. I think you'll find that the greed and corruption was at the top.

No, that's a load of b0ll0cks. What gets in the way is the fact that communism is unnatural, abnormal. It stifles self-reliance, ambition, individualism and freedom.

Wrong. Communism is a global phenomenon not a national one. One one has ever experienced communism in full throttle they've only experienced haphazard attempts to create it and then bungling it completely. What we seen in North Korea, or what was the Soviet Union, Communist China is not communism at all. Not even close to it.

All of these countries operate a state capitalist model (or State socialist model, as it is often inappropriately called).

If we all genuinely lived in a state of communism or true socialism (which is the same as true communism) we wouldn't have to worry about self-reliance, ambition, individualism because everyone would genuinely be free because the concept of property ownership, trade, scare resources etc. would be obscolete.

Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen - at least for a while yet, if ever some may think, depending on your view of human nature.

While I'm in political theory mode: what some of you often call socialism, under the Labour Party or in the worst examples, Blairism, is not socialism at all. The old Parliamentary Labour party was about Social Democracy. Blair doesn't even concede to that model even.

[Fungus]

China, India, Most of Africa, South America, Eastern Europe - mostly to the advantage of western multi-nationals. Just do a quick google on child labour, indentured servitude or slavery if you want find out who is gaining from it.

In most of Africa unbridled capitalism takes second place if that to corrupt authoritarian regimes. I can think of Chad, Zimbabwe, Nigeria etc. India is not unbridled capitalism either. Though they have a long way to go in terms of poverty alleviation etc. As for China, surely that's a weird mix of authoritarian pseudo-Communism, with corruption, free market ideas and state intervention/control. And the number of deaths due to workplace accidents is horrendous, as is the pollution of the air, land and rivers.

What is shameful is the way that some multi-nationals invest in countries with such poor human rights and safety records.

However, who are we to knock the creation of industries in poor countries. That is their path to development, which will fund education and health, and so on. South Korea is one such country that is now a modern economy as a result of industrialisation (though a friend moans about the absurd work hours).

[xoggoth]

I only said espoused, not implemented. Suffice it to say that in my view it goes way too far.

[stackpole]

Sorry, I thought xog was talking about "Western capitalism" being unbridled.

[expat]

I see nothing wrong with communist ideology i.e everyone should work and contribute to society in an equal manner.

Excuse me, that's just woolly socialism (to which I subscribe in principle some of the time), not communist ideology. Not ideology at all, in fact.

A communist party in one country does not mean that it agrees with the policies of a communist party in another country

That's not generally true. Most communist parties including the British supported Stalin and Mao. Quite a feat considering that all these 2 had in common was slave states and mass murder.

[bfg]

Where does anyone practice "unbridled capitalism"? I can't think of anywhere, and I don't know of anyone who espouses it.

China, India, Most of Africa, South America, Eastern Europe - mostly to the advantage of western multi-nationals. Just do a quick google on child labour, indentured servitude or slavery if you want find out who is gaining from it.

[stackpole]

By way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.

Where does anyone practice "unbridled capitalism"? I can't think of anywhere, and I don't know of anyone who espouses it.

[Fungus]

And pleanty of non-communist dictators have done the same. Perhaps the issue is that they were dictators, not that they were communists.

Absolutely.

[xoggoth]

Very true. In theory at any rate.

The reality of it is that big business, in combination with supposedly democratic governments, are just as unresponsive to the needs of the masses as any commisars ever were.

The only difference is that the former PRETEND to give a tulip.

[VectraMan]

And as mentioned Mao and Stalin murdered millions of people, all in the name of the people.

And pleanty of non-communist dictators have done the same. Perhaps the issue is that they were dictators, not that they were communists.

[Fungus]

By way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.

All that is ever pushed is economic progress but human nature has many other needs too. It is capitalism that has given us globalisation where individuals don't matter and uncontrolled immigration that has destroyed any sense of nationhood.

Indeed, but at least Western capitalism can change. We now have laws that protect workers from the sort of abuses that were commonplace 100 years ago.

Whereas Communism is a one party state that serves only to enrich the party faithful. The idea that everyone was equal was never true in Russia, or China. And the hundreds of thousands of Chinese peasants displaced from their land to create the Ynagtse dam testifies to the kindness of the Communists.

And as mentioned Mao and Stalin murdered millions of people, all in the name of the people.

[xoggoth]

By way of balance it also has to be said that the unbridled capitalism so many espouse is hardly any more in tune with human nature.

All that is ever pushed is economic progress but human nature has many other needs too. It is capitalism that has given us globalisation where individuals don't matter and uncontrolled immigration that has destroyed any sense of nationhood.

[Mailman]

A communist party in one country does not mean that it agrees with the policies of a communist party in another country, just as capitalist Germany may not agree with capitalist USA’s policies

How many millions were murdered throughout Europe by the benevolent Communists? What about those millions murdered throughout Russia? What about the millions murdered throughout China in the name of Communism? And the rest of the millions that suffered through out the rest of Asia?

Different countries may have different versions of communism but the end result remains the same, low productivity, high central government control, high mortality rates...and the list goes on.

Mailman