Reply to: Wind Farms

[doodab]

Flywheels seem ridiculously low-tech to me, although perhaps less so than pushing a boulder uphill. It's the sort of thing that people think is a good idea in theory, but you just know will never happen.

They are apparently catching on as UPS in datacentres, so it would appear to be much more "a matter of time" than "never going to happen".

Flywheel Technology

Flywheel UPS - Flywheel Clean Energy Storage Systems - Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) - Technology

I believe at least some of the current technology is descended from stuff developed from nuclear submarines in the US (seawolf rings a bell, I think there was also a le Mans car called the Chrysler Patriot which never actually worked)

And don't forget that every reciprocating internal combustion engine has one

[Mich the Tester]

Whenever I've driven through that flat featureless part of Belgium along the coast I've thought that it'd make an ideal giant wind farm. It's not like it's going to spoil the scenery.

True; same goes for Flevoland (the newest polder) and large chunks of Friesland.

[VectraMan]

We have some big wind farms in Holland and they're quite succesful, especially those located in polders close to the sea; I think it's really about finding (and having) the right locations to build them.

Whenever I've driven through that flat featureless part of Belgium along the coast I've thought that it'd make an ideal giant wind farm. It's not like it's going to spoil the scenery.

[Mich the Tester]

We have some big wind farms in Holland and they're quite succesful, especially those located in polders close to the sea; I think it's really about finding (and having) the right locations to build them.

[minestrone]

In the year 2007 the percentage of primary energy derived from major sources was as follows:[2]
Oil: 38.0%
Natural gas: 37.7%
Coal: 16.7%
Nuclear power: 5.8%
Renewable: 1.8%.

I will quote wikipedia (as I am lazy) on the output of Hunterston B. "and is capable of supplying the electricity needs of over 1 million homes" Torness does roughly the same and with a population 6 million you can see where the 55% figure comes from, it is not 5.8% up here.

[BlasterBates]

Yes I had one of those, flat heated by an electric storage heater

That's all there was, one electric storage heater.

It was like that zero-carbon classroom, uninhabitable in Winter.

[VectraMan]

Some formula 1 cars are using flywheels as part of the recently reintroduced KERS, but only historical data is available:

I imagine what F1 use will be the state of the art in both volume, mass and energy density. And will only have to last one or two races I expect. The other KERS alternative allowed is capacitors, but I haven't read up on that yet.

Williams experimented with flywheel based KERS, but never actually ran it for real. All the systems that were actually used (including this year) are based on batteries.

Flywheels seem ridiculously low-tech to me, although perhaps less so than pushing a boulder uphill. It's the sort of thing that people think is a good idea in theory, but you just know will never happen.

If only someone could come up with a kind of heater that would store heat from cheap overnight electricity and release it in the day... No wait. I had those years ago in a flat, and they were crap.

[Churchill]

LOL. I see you your 35 year old accident and raise you all the people killed in the two Gulf Wars.

I see your two Gulf wars and raise you all the people killed by Spanish flu after the Great War.

[pjclarke]

on condition that you observe 28500 minutes for the 171,000 people killed when the Banqiao Dam burst

LOL. I see you your 35 year old accident and raise you all the people killed in the two Gulf Wars.

[pjclarke]

Here's my mate's response if anyone still interested:

In general the report labours the point that wind farms do not produce full power often and often produce less than full power at times when grid demand is high. Wind power is not a good source of power or guaranteed power capacity / security. It is an excellent source of energy. The difference between the sources/applications/needs for energy and power are ignored.

p1/15

The report title is ANALYSIS OF UK WIND POWER GENERATION but the executive summary says PRINCIPAL FINDINGS in respect of analysis of electricity generation from all the U.K. windfarms which are metered by National Grid my bold. At present this is a small subset of the total. A wider source of data would be REF's study of Ofgem ROC returns but this does not yet include all of 2010 (stops at 2/3/10) which was an unusually low wind speed year so it may not have suited the author's purposes.

Regarding the 5 assertions, who asserts them?

1-3 are correct in some general sense but subject to caveats which are often omitted.

I have never heard anyone assert 4 & 5, they are strawmen. I would never make such claims.

Regarding the numbered "facts"

1) two years have little statistical significance for long term performance. It would be interesting to check the source data to see how representative it is of expected long term performance e.g. did it include wind farms with unusual problems? Did it include wind farms which were undergoing commissioning and not yet fully operational? etc.

2) was this 1600 MW average capacity all metered by National Grid?

3) wind generation capacity is not evenly distributed, wind generation metered by National Grid even less so. Low wind production is not yet itself an indication of widespread low wind speed. )n p6/15 the report acknowledges that up to July 2010 all the data came from Scotland

4) so what?

5) so what?

p2/15

Other findings

1) so what? such power distributions are not unusual (except 2010 is a low wind speed year and generally depresses the numbers). I don't know why the author says the findings were unexpected.

I can't be bothered with the rest of the "Other Findings" because on p3/15 it says
It is clear from this analysis that wind cannot be relied upon to provide any significant level of
generation at any defined time in the future. There is an urgent need to re-evaluate the
implications of reliance on wind for any significant proportion of our energy requirement.
My bold. More confusion of source of and needs for power and energy.

Introduction

The data comes from National Grid BM Reports. Only a minority of wind farms are registered in the balancing mechanism (generally those that are connected to the transmission system >=132kV in Scotland, >= 275kV in England & Wales or big enough to need a direct agreement with National Grid >=100MW in England & Wales, >=30MW in south Scotland, >10MW in North Scotland) This is acknowledged on p6/15

p7/15 the methodology uses an unusual selection of bins of % of rated production

Skipping forward, bored.

p12/15 Changes in output in excess of 100MW over a five minute period are not uncommon. nor are they uncommon for demand variations. National Grid does not seem to be concerned, at least they never mention it to me nor have they published anything to that effect.

p13/15 There will come a point during a high wind output event which is coincident with low demand
when, for operational reasons, no more thermal plant can be constrained off. Wind generation will
have to be constrained off instead. The author does not say what those operational reasons might be. Perhaps he does not know. I do and so do many in the wind industry and at National Grid. We are working to alleviate these constraints.

This Report cannot determine at what level that point occurs, but it seems likely that the “mustrun”
level of thermal generation will be above 10GW. wild guess

Appendix A

example 1. includes caveats and states the expected average capacity factor to one significant figure only

example 2 links to an ECI report which uses a different and more robust methodology. Does Stuart Young allege any errors or impropriety in the ECI report?

example 3. energy is reliable not power

example 4 the quotes do not support the supposed assertion

example 5. The quote is incomplete (only lists one of four main ways tgo provide or contribute to security of supplies) no one expects GB pumped storage alone to make up any deficit of wind power

My summary. V. poor. It will be accepted as impressive by some who know no better.

[scooterscot]

The SNP are wanting to get a power cable to Norway who are offering to build multiples of these energy reservoirs. Someone has to get them told they are living in a fantasy land. Nuclear produces 55% of Scotland's energy with 2 stations.

In the year 2007 the percentage of primary energy derived from major sources was as follows:[2]
Oil: 38.0%
Natural gas: 37.7%
Coal: 16.7%
Nuclear power: 5.8%
Renewable: 1.8%.

[TimberWolf]

That's the thing though, even a ton hoisted up 100m is less than 1/3rd of a kilowatt hour. I think something more like this is the way to go

Flywheel energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could build one into the base of every turbine too

Some impressive figure there. I tried to imagine what a power station sized flywheel failure would look like, but mechanical failures on that scale aren't easy to imagine.

Some formula 1 cars are using flywheels as part of the recently reintroduced KERS, but only historical data is available:

This system weighs 24 kg and has an energy capacity of 400 kJ after allowing for internal losses. A maximum power boost of 60 kW (81.6 PS, 80.4 HP) for 6.67 s is available. The 240 mm diameter flywheel weighs 5.0 kg and revolves at up to 64,500 rpm. Maximum torque is 18 Nm (13.3 ftlbs). The system occupies a volume of 13 litres.

I imagine what F1 use will be the state of the art in both volume, mass and energy density. And will only have to last one or two races I expect. The other KERS alternative allowed is capacitors, but I haven't read up on that yet.

[TimberWolf]

Fat contains 37 * 10^6 Joules/kg, which has the same potential energy as 1 kg of fat raised to a height of 37 * 10^5 metres = 3,700 km. So it's perhaps not surprising animals preferred to go down the hydrocarbon energy storage route rather than pumping all blood to the head alternative. This difference is so vast I can hardly believe my own figures.

Is fat hard to make artificially? Some people seem to manage it no problem at all, and I'm not just looking at you General Maximus Decimus Meridius.

[darmstadt]

Another alternative I read about are smart meters. These aren't clever units of distance, but I guess are ones that vary the price per unit of electricity, dependent on supply. So a deep freezer might only operate at night or something and you hold fire on doing your washing until the wind blows unless you want to pay more. I might have made all that up though. It might also spark interest in home energy storage, which might even be sold back to the grid. Electricity speculation!

Something a bit like this (only in German though,) you'll even be able to develope your own 'apps' for it soon. I know a guy here in Germany (and he's not the only one doing it) who is totally self-sufficient in providing his own energy and selling the surplus back to the power companies.

[doodab]

There's something to be said for hoisting boulders to the top of a hill for electricity while I type this message using some of the most sophisticated electronics man has produced.

That's the thing though, even a ton hoisted up 100m is less than 1/3rd of a kilowatt hour. I think something more like this is the way to go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

You could build one into the base of every turbine too