Reply to: Stealing Freedom

[zathras]

To quote a couple of well known adages.

1. In a democracy the people get the Gov't they deserve.

2. Democracy sews the seeds of its own destruction.

If the people don't care about their privacy and freedoms - they will invariably lose them eventually.

Just a few examples ...

Habius Corpus
The trashing of Habius Corpus is indeed a serious blow to legal protection afforded to the innocent individual.

ID cards
The intended introduction of an ID card system that also conspicuously holds and tracks enormous volumes of personal information about us. To be introduced by stealth and for deceitful reasons. The real agenda behind ID cards is very worrying.

Politicised public sector
Is another facet of empowering Gov't to intimidate, not influence, otherwise impartial decision making processes.

Virtually every facet of the public sector has become politicised to an alarming degree - including the Police and the Judiciary.

Intended internment
This Gov't claims everything will be alright because of the inclusion of the courts throughout the process. This would be more comfortable if it were not for the agenda of this Gov't politicising the judiciary.

Once the judiciary has lost its autonomy from Government is when at best the most awful corruption creeps in. At worst fair trials and honest judgements are consigned to history.

IMO it is foolhardy to paint the Conservatives and LibDems with the same brush as the control freaks in Labour - certainly in regard to protecting the kinds of freedoms and legal protections normally associated with an established democracy.

Fools and their freedom, like their money, are soon parted.

It's worth noting that the 90 days detention without trial or charge that TB wanted for the terrorism act was more than the 12 weeks (84 days) that was given to the driver of a stolen vehicle who killed a 5 year old crossing the road. Also prior to TB being in power it was only 7 days. He got it increased first to 14 days and then got 28.

You can add to that the curtailing of democracy itself. Under the guise of reducing regulation the government is currently passing a bill which will allow ministers to alter legislation and to pass new secondary legislation without and debate or vote in either house. Some commentators have even said that a minister may be in a position to postpone an election!

[threaded]

Debt and revolution are inseparable as cause and effect.

[expat]

To quote a couple of well known adages.
...
2. Democracy sews the seeds of its own destruction.

Are you sure that's a well'known adage? I haven't heard it before.

I've heard of "capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction" - Marx wrote it and the communists quoted it a lot, but judging by the effort they put into doing the sowing themselves, I don't think they believed it either.

[DaveB]

Estelle Morris, former Secretary of State for Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2355059.stm

The 'system' soon filters out those who have an inkling of well meaning.

"Resigning because you know damn well you're going to get the boot anyway is not an excuse."

[BobTheCrate]

To quote a couple of well known adages.

1. In a democracy the people get the Gov't they deserve.

2. Democracy sews the seeds of its own destruction.

If the people don't care about their privacy and freedoms - they will invariably lose them eventually.

Just a few examples ...

Habius Corpus
The trashing of Habius Corpus is indeed a serious blow to legal protection afforded to the innocent individual.

ID cards
The intended introduction of an ID card system that also conspicuously holds and tracks enormous volumes of personal information about us. To be introduced by stealth and for deceitful reasons. The real agenda behind ID cards is very worrying.

Politicised public sector
Is another facet of empowering Gov't to intimidate, not influence, otherwise impartial decision making processes.

Virtually every facet of the public sector has become politicised to an alarming degree - including the Police and the Judiciary.

Intended internment
This Gov't claims everything will be alright because of the inclusion of the courts throughout the process. This would be more comfortable if it were not for the agenda of this Gov't politicising the judiciary.

Once the judiciary has lost its autonomy from Government is when at best the most awful corruption creeps in. At worst fair trials and honest judgements are consigned to history.

IMO it is foolhardy to paint the Conservatives and LibDems with the same brush as the control freaks in Labour - certainly in regard to protecting the kinds of freedoms and legal protections normally associated with an established democracy.

Fools and their freedom, like their money, are soon parted.

[OwlHoot]

A blatant example of loss of freedom is Prescott's plan for council valuers to demand entry into people's private properties, where they will poke around and take photos of each room.

There was a time when it was unconstitutional for any official to demand access to private property except in an emergency such as fire or with a court warrant.

When the time comes I plan to refuse them entry and not pay the £500 fine, and see where it leads. I'm sure I won't be the only one.

'The poorest man may, in his cottage, bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storms may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter; all his forces dare not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement."

William Pitt Jr

[Dundeegeorge]

That's very generous of you Noddy

Estelle Morris, former Secretary of State for Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2355059.stm

The 'system' soon filters out those who have an inkling of well meaning.

But Estelle Morris was in an untenable position and decided she ought to resign before being forced out. Granted she showed less arrogance than Vaz, Blunkett, Mandelson, but she hardly stood down because she thought it was in the best interests of the department of education, regardless of what she might say now or even at the time.

[NoddY]

...When was the last time a British politician of any persuasion stood down because they thought someone else would be better at the job? Or because they felt they were wrong and a differant way of doing things would be better or for any other reason other than being voted out or forced out. Resigning becasue you know damn well your going to get the boot anyway is not an excuse......

Estelle Morris, former Secretary of State for Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2355059.stm

The 'system' soon filters out those who have an inkling of well meaning.

[bogeyman]

Winston had nothing to do with the running of the Lottery, which was managed by the Ministry of Plenty, but he was aware (indeed everyone in the party was aware) that the prizes were largely imaginary.

Only small sums were actually paid out, the winners of the big prizes being non-existent persons.

In the absence of any real inter-communication between one part of Oceania and another, this was not difficult to arrange.

But if there was hope, it lay in the proles.

You had to cling on to that.

Yes. Highly poignient old chap - except it's not the prizes that are in doubt, it's the allocation of the surplus funds to 'good causes'.

Otherwise, spot on.

Anyway, "back to Stealing our Freedom" - anyone?

[Central-Scrutiniser]

'Can't you bleeding well listen to what I say? I tell you no number ending in seven ain't won for over fourteen months!'

'Yes, it 'as, then!'

'No, it 'as not! Back 'ome I got the 'ole lot of 'em for over two years wrote down on a piece of paper. I takes 'em down reg'lar as the clock. An' I tell you, no number ending in seven-'

'Yes, a seven 'as won! I could pretty near tell you the bleeding number. Four oh seven, it ended in. It were in February -- second week in February.'

'February your grandmother! I got it all down in black and white. An' I tell you, no number-'

'Oh, pack it in!' said the third man.


They were talking about the Lottery.

Winston looked back when he had gone thirty metres.

They were still arguing, with vivid, passionate faces.

The Lottery, with its weekly pay-out of enormous prizes, was the one public event to which the proles paid serious attention.

It was probable that there were some millions of proles for whom the Lottery was the principal if not the only reason for remaining alive.

It was their delight, their folly, their anodyne, their intellectual stimulant. Where the Lottery was concerned, even people who could barely read and write seemed capable of intricate calculations and staggering feats of memory.

There was a whole tribe of men who made a living simply by selling systems, forecasts, and lucky amulets.

Winston had nothing to do with the running of the Lottery, which was managed by the Ministry of Plenty, but he was aware (indeed everyone in the party was aware) that the prizes were largely imaginary.

Only small sums were actually paid out, the winners of the big prizes being non-existent persons.

In the absence of any real inter-communication between one part of Oceania and another, this was not difficult to arrange.

But if there was hope, it lay in the proles.

You had to cling on to that.

The rocket bombs which fell daily on London were probably fired by the government of Oceania itself, 'just to keep the people frightened'.”

[Denny]

Wouldn't be suprised Denny.

But the big TVs in pubs are entirely symptomatic of today's society.

Once, a pub was where you went to talk, sing, play darts/cards/pool or whatever - and generaly engange with your fellow men and women.

Now we go in, load up with Stella and gawp at a big big telly, shout at the screen when our team are winning/losing - and get generally all leary and obnoxious.

Anyway - that was all slightly besides the point, I know.

Actually, it's not really.

We're all so miserable these days that we need to find as many distractions and emotional diversions as we can. The thought police are keen to ensure that we speak less to each other in pubs in case we become subversive and encourage dissent. As for playing darts - well that's highly dangerous because darts are offensive weapons and dart boards are 'coloured' therefore throwing a dart at a board is really 'incitement to racial hatred.' Cards are also dangerous because they encourage risk taking and strategy which the government wouldn't approve of in case we gamble on voting them out at the next election.

[sasguru]

I feel utterly disenfranchised. I'm naturally a slightly right-of-centre voter - but with Camerons his New Cons, I don't feel I have anyone to vote for that I really agree with.

Join the club. I am a little more optimistic though. There are more of us than you think and I suspect Cameron is simply playing the game.

[bogeyman]

Hmmm. Ok fair point. But the real problem is not really with this government, as short of a coup d'etat, they will be removed in the next election. The Murdoch press seems to have decided on Cameron already. The real problem is whether the Tories will be any better and whether broader society really cares what's going on.

I don't think 'broader society' gives a toss anymore, really.

I feel utterly disenfranchised. I'm naturally a slightly right-of-centre voter - but with Camerons his New Cons, I don't feel I have anyone to vote for that I really agree with. He's all about 'empowering those in poverty' - yadda yadda. Never mind us poor bastards who've worked hard all our lives - we're just there to be milked it seems, to support the idle and feckless.

All the mainstream parties are left of centre. All the right of centre parties are Little Englanders or Racist Nutjobs.

I wish I shared your optimism about the next election, but I think El Presidente Gordon is a real possibility.

[expat]

Yes. Fair cop Expat - it was Thatcher that put the gates there in 1989.

OK, fair do's: she was personally a control freak, but this PM and Kanzler, and all Labour Home Secretaries after Roy Jenkins, are political controllers. Wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw Lenin's tomb.

[bogeyman]

Do you think those big televisions you see in pubs showing the football or endless pop videos are really 'Telescreens' with the authorities spying on the punters to check their drinking habits? Soon will we hear a big booming voiceover when someone drinks more than the government's recommended daily unit allocation or someone lights up accidentally in a non-smoking designated area?

Wouldn't be suprised Denny.

But the big TVs in pubs are entirely symptomatic of today's society.

Once, a pub was where you went to talk, sing, play darts/cards/pool or whatever - and generaly engange with your fellow men and women.

Now we go in, load up with Stella and gawp at a big big telly, shout at the screen when our team are winning/losing - and get generally all leary and obnoxious.

Anyway - that was all slightly besides the point, I know.