Reply to: Inequality of Pay. Women vs Men

[Joe Black]

Like I said, the report actually concludes (more or less) the opposite -- that women are generally paid the same for the same role as their male counterparts (page 72 para 4 of the report quotes one of the Amicus surveys in the financial sector on this subject).

It concludes that equal pay for equal work isn't a major cause of the pay gap. The issues are in whether they get the role in the first place, not in whether they get paid the same once they are in it.

Agreed, but using the words "pay inequality", "discrimination" and the rest sell more papers, or provide much bigger sticks to beat something with...

Almost every report I've seen over the last x years claiming pay inequality has been much the same, i.e. there generally isn't any. The differences come almost solely down to work/life choices, motivation, and other factors.

Unfortunately as mentioned, it seems simple sound-bites or punch-lines are what gets attention...

[sasguru]

I've not come across many fat career women. Most seem slim and look after themselves.

Which is probably why you failed to score with them.

[threaded]

The expansion of career women was a bad move.

I've not come across many fat career women. Most seem slim and look after themselves.

[XLMonkey]

I think this report was meant to highlight that women are still being paid less per hour or day for doing exactly the same role as their male counterparts even if they have the same experience, qualifications, ability and potential.

Like I said, the report actually concludes (more or less) the opposite -- that women are generally paid the same for the same role as their male counterparts (page 72 para 4 of the report quotes one of the Amicus surveys in the financial sector on this subject).

It concludes that equal pay for equal work isn't a major cause of the pay gap. The issues are in whether they get the role in the first place, not in whether they get paid the same once they are in it.

agree with the rest of what you wrote though....

[stackpole]

If you can't afford the time to look after your kids then really it is not much of a life is it?

The expansion of career women was a bad move.

It's because of them that house prices are where they are, and so all the other women have to do it to keep up, leaving childminders and nannies to bring up their kids for them, and leaving them to plan that "quality hour with little whats-his-name".

[threaded]

If you can't afford the time to look after your kids then really it is not much of a life is it?

[Dundeegeorge]

I think that's a fair enough comment from Denny

Remarkably observant for someone who still lives with his mum

I mean sweeping (and probably inaccurate) generalisations is exactly what the report contains, so why shouldn't Denny respond in kind?

[expat]

The real problem is that men have never and still aren't taking on their full share of childcare responsibilities which is still seen as the woman's main responsibility. Even in households where both partners work in well paid jobs they are much more likely to hire a nanny and housekeeper than divide these chores between them. Otherwise, the woman will end up doing both as well as her job which the man just doing the occasional hoovering and wiping the dishes.

So women should keep marrying these prats and, in effect, get the state to take up the slack? No, that's not the real problem. If you marry a man who won't pull his weight, that's not my problem.

[DaveB]

The real problem is that men have never and still aren't taking on their full share of childcare responsibilities which is still seen as the woman's main responsibility.

And to a large extent the reason than many men dont do that is because businesses dont give the same flexibility to men to take time off for childcare related reasons. Take a look at the current paternity leave entitlements.

Add to this the fact that most men are still the main source of income in the household and you have a self sustaining system of discrimination.

The man doesnt get the same entitlement or leeway to take time off for childcare. They cant afford to take unpaid leave to do it as they are the main income generator so it falls to the woman to do it, which restricts her career options and thus her earning potential. Rinse and repeat as nessesary.

There are exceptions to this where the burden is shared or the man takes on most of the childcare duties but they are very much exceptions and few and far between at that.

[DodgyAgent]

I think this report was meant to highlight that women are still being paid less per hour or day for doing exactly the same role as their male counterparts even if they have the same experience, qualifications, ability and potential.

That is clearly wrong and against the law.

I do think that women who are careerists shouldn't necessarily have an organisation bend over backwards to accommodate time off to mind kids whilst still expecting to advance alongside their non-encumbered counterparts though whether they are men or women. Clearly the best careers should be reserved for those who can put in the necessary hours.

The real problem is that men have never and still aren't taking on their full share of childcare responsibilities which is still seen as the woman's main responsibility. Even in households where both partners work in well paid jobs they are much more likely to hire a nanny and housekeeper than divide these chores between them. Otherwise, the woman will end up doing both as well as her job which the man just doing the occasional hoovering and wiping the dishes. Of course, there are househusbands too who do stay at home and mind the kids whilst their female partner works but they are still rare.

Remarkably observant for someone who still lives with his mum

[Denny]

....but I think you'll find that the report doesn't actually say this. It says the opposite - that women do usually get paid the same for the same job.

the problem is that women don't generally get the same jobs. Men tend to get full-time jobs lasting long periods of time that build into senior management roles. Women tend to get part-time jobs that fill in between childcare and don't build into anything very much.

The one good thing about the report is that it didn't recommend equal pay audits. These are usually a complete waste of time and suck up tons of effort from the employer that could be better spent running the business.

I think this report was meant to highlight that women are still being paid less per hour or day for doing exactly the same role as their male counterparts even if they have the same experience, qualifications, ability and potential.

That is clearly wrong and against the law.

I do think that women who are careerists shouldn't necessarily have an organisation bend over backwards to accommodate time off to mind kids whilst still expecting to advance alongside their non-encumbered counterparts though whether they are men or women. Clearly the best careers should be reserved for those who can put in the necessary hours.

The real problem is that men have never and still aren't taking on their full share of childcare responsibilities which is still seen as the woman's main responsibility. Even in households where both partners work in well paid jobs they are much more likely to hire a nanny and housekeeper than divide these chores between them. Otherwise, the woman will end up doing both as well as her job which the man just doing the occasional hoovering and wiping the dishes. Of course, there are househusbands too who do stay at home and mind the kids whilst their female partner works but they are still rare.

[Mordac]

That'll be the one. I cannot disagree with you, but since we used to work together he can at least testify to my relative lack of salad-dodging. Whether he chooses to is a completely different matter.

[threaded]

Would that be the Thai-tat salesman? Not the greatest choice to make such prognostications methinks ...

[Mordac]

Go on post a picture of yourself then, (and not the one with you in the gingham dress this time please), and we'll have the congregation decide...

Please don't mention the gingham dress again. I still require occasional therapy.
Photos will have to wait (I'm working away all week) but I'm sure MarillionFan - who knows me - will be happy to play impartial judge on this one.

[threaded]

Go on post a picture of yourself then, (and not the one with you in the gingham dress this time please), and we'll have the congregation decide...