Reply to: The Big Society

[Doggy Styles]

1. Labour could have put in place regulation to control the banks rather than cosying up to them

Or even left it as it was, with the BoE taking full responsibility, and not dividing it among three bodies who didn't know what each other were supposed to be doing.

2. Labour (Brown in particular) was guilty of believing in the complete nonsensical bollux that "boom and bust" was abolished forever and therefore he could count on a growing revenue stream for ever. While excusable in a 21 y/o economics undergrad, for a chancellor of the UK to believe and act as such is too stupid for words.

WSGS

3. Anyone who has had dealings withe public sector (whether it be the NHS, council, courts, unemployment office) can see the massive inefficiency that exists.

Only if they have ever seen how things are done outside the public sector. Those that only know public sector won't know any different.

4. The NHS needs complete reform before it bankrupts the country. Its own website trumpets the fact that its the 3rd biggest employer in the world (after the Chinese army and Indian railways) without asking whether this is appropriate for a medium sized European country.

This was and still is the Labour measure of success in a department - boasting about how much they are spending on it.

[OwlHoot]

1. Labour could have put in place regulation to control the banks rather than cosying up to them

2. Labour (Brown in particular) was guilty of believing in the complete nonsensical bollux that "boom and bust" was abolished forever and therefore he could count on a growing revenue stream for ever. While excusable in a 21 y/o economics undergrad, for a chancellor of the UK to believe and act as such is too stupid for words.

3. Anyone who has had dealings withe public sector (whether it be the NHS, council, courts, unemployment office) can see the massive inefficiency that exists.

4. The NHS needs complete reform before it bankrupts the country. Its own website trumpets the fact that its the 3rd biggest employer in the world (after the Chinese army and Indian railways) without asking whether this is appropriate for a medium sized European country.
And we have to ask ourselves why our health system has worse outcomes than almost any you care to name in Western Europe.

I'm not a rabid right-wing Tory but I think you non-analytical ideological lefties are just as moronic as the braying thick Tories of the home counties.

WHS

[sasguru]

First up, the current global financial cock-up is not a 'Labour legacy' it's a legacy brought about by greedy, predominantly American, banks.

Whilst not denying that Labour were wasteful handing out millions of public sector money to their chums at the big consulting firms, the Tories are using the current situation as an excuse to run riot with their more hateful policies of slashing spending on health, education and social welfare.

1. Labour could have put in place regulation to control the banks rather than cosying up to them

2. Labour (Brown in particular) was guilty of believing in the complete nonsensical bollux that "boom and bust" was abolished forever and therefore he could count on a growing revenue stream for ever. While excusable in a 21 y/o economics undergrad, for a chancellor of the UK to believe and act as such is too stupid for words.

3. Anyone who has had dealings withe public sector (whether it be the NHS, council, courts, unemployment office) can see the massive inefficiency that exists.

4. The NHS needs complete reform before it bankrupts the country. Its own website trumpets the fact that its the 3rd biggest employer in the world (after the Chinese army and Indian railways) without asking whether this is appropriate for a medium sized European country.
And we have to ask ourselves why our health system has worse outcomes than almost any you care to name in Western Europe.

I'm not a rabid right-wing Tory but I think you non-analytical ideological lefties are just as moronic as the braying thick Tories of the home counties.

[sasguru]

Seems Nick and SAS (Churchill?) are the leftiest we have..

I don't know whether to be more offended that you think I'm Churchill or that you think I'm a lefty.

How wrong can one person be.

Aaaaarrrghhhhhhhhh!

[minestrone]

What Thatcher said about no society and this vision of a big society are, as I see, the same thing, Thatcher's speech is probably one of the most misunderstood political passages of the 20th century.

[SueEllen]

Sceptical. I suppose it hinges largely on what this national citizen service is. There are a lot of people who have time for voluntary work and would be interested it, it's just that it is all such a damn hastle getting involved. Visiting umpteen office for leaflets, applying to different organisations, providing references & CRB check details over an over again, doing the similar tests (like bus driving) over and over.

Depends what sort of voluntary work you want to do.

Not everything involves CRB checks, references and tests. However they tend to be one off opportunities with societies/organisations which you have to say yes there and then.

If it only had a central body that did all this once more might bother. If it only works in more affluent areas it could save money.

Save a lot of bl**dy money if they did.

Problem with this Big Society thing is the people I know who volunteer will do it anyway. The people who don't still won't be bothered to do it.

[Doggy Styles]

So what is CUK Party policy on this - should individuals take more responsibility for themselves (apparently that's what both Big Society and No Society means ), or the should the state do more (Big State)?

Personally I'd ask myself: What would Gordon Brown do?

[RichardCranium]

Death to the capitalist classes!

Yeah, right on, man! I hated O Level Economics lessons, too.

[Old Greg]

Sorry OldG, it was the capitalist classes bit.

Haven't we got any raving Maoists on CUK? Seems Nick and SAS (Churchill?) are the leftiest we have. Pity, I can bore for ages on capitalism vs communism.

You misunderstand me again. Death to the capitalist classes!

[xoggoth]

I'm being a bit cheeky - I'm not a Leninist

Sorry OldG, it was the capitalist classes bit.

Haven't we got any raving Maoists on CUK? Seems Nick and SAS (Churchill?) are the leftiest we have. Pity, I can bore for ages on capitalism vs communism.

[minestrone]

Isn't that called an "anarchy"?

Yes, that is what we call the council round these parts.

[Old Greg]

Gor! You are an old lefty! I'm really amazed, given history, that anyone still believes that sort of thing. That was Lenin's ideal and look what happened. Where has communism been anything but a repressive dictatorship in practice? Those who are ambitious and able will always rise to the top and control society, the only difference under communism is that they become part of the state. Unlike in a capitalist society that state is the only power in the land, there are no independent checks or sanctions.

I agree unfettered capitalism is no better, we need a free market with strong state regulations. Like the ones the government should have had on the banks.

I'm being a bit cheeky - I'm not a Leninist. Funnily enough, I think there are some interesting ideas about co-operatives coming out of the government, but I suspect they are a cover for massive cuts and privatisation. Really, I'm a co-operativist. I'd like to see the removal of the power of capital and bureacracy.

Anyway, I think it was Lenin who talked about the withering of the State - I just don't fancy the dictatorship of the proletariat stage.

[RichardCranium]

I like the idea, decentralisation of responsibility, empowerment of the population to take charge of local services which are often supplied at a extremely low standard by the council.

Isn't that called an "anarchy"?

[xoggoth]

Would need to be combined by the removal of media ownership from the capitalist class and for its ownership to be democratised.

Gor! You are an old lefty! I'm really amazed, given history, that anyone still believes that sort of thing. That was Lenin's ideal and look what happened. Where has communism been anything but a repressive dictatorship in practice? Those who are ambitious and able will always rise to the top and control society, the only difference under communism is that they become part of the state. Unlike in a capitalist society that state is the only power in the land, there are no independent checks or sanctions.

I agree unfettered capitalism is no better, we need a free market with strong state regulations. Like the ones the government should have had on the banks.

[Old Greg]

My family is worth only about 30p. Let me try it...

...no it was easy for me to say as well. Anyone else care to give it a go?

Then it is different coming from you. The context of words matter, particularly when looking at the wealth and power of the speaker and the impact that the words have on his life.