Reply to: Winter starts soon

[TimberWolf]

Well anyway we can be sure that it is winter on 23 December in the UK by any definition.

[doodab]

Blah

My point was actually that there is no "generally accepted" definition, but that most traditional definitions say that 21st December is the middle of winter, not the start.

[TimberWolf]

Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also in Wiki:

In the USA (and sometimes in Britain) the season is regarded as beginning at the solstice and ending on the following equinox[2][3] — in the Northern Hemisphere, depending on the year, this corresponds to the period between 21 or 22 December and 20 or 21 March.
Winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had previously pointed out that weathermen use whole months, so there's no contention or anything new there.

[doodab]

The Encyclopedia Britannica is a Merkin publication. (FFS, they cannot even spell Encyclopædia correctly.)

They do on the site itself, just not in the domain name. I expect that's because of the limits on which characters one could use in domain names when it was registered.

In this case, Wikipedia seems have bested them.

[doodab]

Perhaps I am wrong. And Wiki, the Encyclopaedia Britannica and probably most calendars. Oh, and astronomers.

In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina, an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[5] Therefore, in meteorology for the Northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December.

Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In traditional reckoning, the seasons begin at the cross-quarter days. The solstices and equinoxes are the midpoints of these seasons. For example, the days of greatest and least insolation are considered the "midsummer" and "midwinter" respectively.
This reckoning is used by various traditional cultures in the Northern Hemisphere, including East Asian and Irish cultures.[citation needed] In Iran, Afghanistan and some other parts of Middle East the beginning of the astronomical spring is the beginning of the new year which is called Nowruz.

Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In astronomical reckoning, the solstices and equinoxes ought to be the middle of the respective seasons, but, because of thermal lag, regions with a continental climate often consider these four dates to be the start of the seasons as in the diagram, with the cross-quarter days considered seasonal midpoints.

Season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[TimberWolf]

I couldn't give a flying fuck any more. You are determined not to read what I wrote that supports your assertion, starting with midwinter being on 21t December, and instead want the world to be wrong so you can complain about it.

Suit yourself. Be unhappy.

Sorry, I'm just acting for the defence, I don't like the date either. Perhaps that winter start date isn't in as common use as I thought. The likelihood is that most people have only a vague idea when winter starts, except when they see it on a calendar or when it gets cold.

Summer in no better, with mid-summer's day coinciding with the start of summer (at least, as is often shown on calendars) and the longest day.

[RichardCranium]

Perhaps I am wrong. And Wiki, the Encyclopaedia Britannica and probably most calendars. Oh, and astronomers.

I couldn't give a flying fuck any more. You are determined not to read what I wrote that supports your assertion, starting with midwinter being on 21t December, and instead want the world to be wrong so you can complain about it.

Suit yourself. Be unhappy.

[TimberWolf]

Please do poke fun at that date. It is bollocks to use it as the start of Winter, and I think you are in a minority in thinking it is commonly used as the start of Winter from a Northern hemisphere, human perspective. Those that do so are wrong, or are lazy journalists filling column inches with stupid bollocks.

Perhaps I am wrong. And Wiki, the Encyclopaedia Britannica and probably most calendars. Oh, and astronomers.

[TimberWolf]

FFS.

The hemisphere is completely relevant because in the Southern Hemisphere, it is SUMMER.

Ah, I thought you were speaking of the equinoxes. What are you describing here:

the axis is parallel to the line from the Earth to the Sun,

which axis? Which 'line'? The Earth's axis is never parallel to the ecliptic. It is however perpendicular to it in March and September.

[RichardCranium]

No, quite the reverse. I was saying the commonly used start date for Winter has not yet occurred, despite the recent 'winter' weather (it will occur on Tuesday). I often poke fun of that date.

Please do poke fun at that date. It is bollocks to use it as the start of Winter, and I think you are in a minority in thinking it is commonly used as the start of Winter from a Northern hemisphere, human perspective. Those that do so are wrong, or are lazy journalists filling column inches with stupid bollocks.

[TimberWolf]

Your post that started this thread was alluding to the need to acknowledge winter's start in the UK as having already occurred.

I am trying to agree with you.

No, quite the reverse. I was saying the commonly used start date for Winter has not yet occurred, despite the recent 'winter' weather (it will occur on Tuesday). I often poke fun of that date.

[RichardCranium]

The Earth's axis is generally defined to be the axis which the Earth spins around, which is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. The hemisphere is irrelevant, they are both perpendicular to the ecliptic plane.

FFS.

The hemisphere is completely relevant because in the Southern Hemisphere, it is SUMMER.

[RichardCranium]

It's also the period used in astronomy for the winter season.

Your post that started this thread was alluding to the need to acknowledge winter's start in the UK as having already occurred.

I am trying to agree with you.

Do you now want to disagree with yourself, or are you putting up straw men for me to knock down?

The heat we receive from the sun is at its minimum on 21st (sometimes 20th) December. The land, and the sea even more so, hold the heat they were given earlier in the year resulting on the overall temperature having a minimum somewhere in January.

The weather we experience varies year-on-year but the average cold point is not 21st December; it is a few weeks later but it is not 6 weeks later so the Winter Solstice occurs a few weeks into the coldest 13 weeks.

It is not the start of the cold period, just as it is not the mid-point either, in the UK's climate.

You can go for the astronomical definition, the astrological definition, the thermological definition, the Clinton's Cards definition, the calendrical (the most dodgy of all!) definition or whatever you fancy.

The context you were using in your original post was meteorological: we've had snow for about 3 weeks so you were suggesting winter started at the end of November, this year.

The actual start of winter must a local, human and year-specific definition.

[TimberWolf]

No, it isn't. It is when, in the Northern Hemisphere, the axis is parallel to the line from the Earth to the Sun, meaning the day length equals the night length. (That makes it the shortest day.) Our non-circular orbit around the sun is not part of that.

In the Southern hemisphere, because their pole, the South pole, is sunward, they get their longest day.

The Earth's axis is generally defined to be the axis which the Earth spins around, which is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. The hemisphere is irrelevant, they are both perpendicular to the ecliptic plane.

[TimberWolf]

As I said, it is a modern republican's - in this case Merkin's - idea of the start of winter. The Encyclopedia Britannica is a Merkin publication. (FFS, they cannot even spell Encyclopædia correctly.)

It's also the period used in astronomy for the winter season.