Winter starts soon

[RichardCranium]

I must say I didn't realise there was such ambiguity in the minds of people on when winter starts. For good or bad I thought the majority accepted the traditional date of 21(ish) December, in the UK, but it seems judging from the posts here that everyone has their own idea.

Sorry, TW, you're way out. In Britain, the traditional start of winter has never been the 3rd week of December.

I'm pretty sure I was never told in school, in science, or history, or anything "official" that said 21st December was the start of winter, so I'm not sure why you think that date is traditional, or even would be accepted by the majority.

Absolutely.

I guess most people don't know when winter traditionally (not 'officially') starts, and certainly not how late in the year this date is set. That is the date you'll probably see on a calendar though.

The only people that set 'official' dates for seasons are card companies and new-born republics like the Merkins. There is no official start of seasons in the UK.

A bit earlier would tie up better with the weather in the UK (the south anyway), as per the weathermen's range of the whole of Dec, Jan, Feb.

The temperature lags behind the Earth's pole position because of latent heat retention. This is dependent upon geography: the ratio of land to water and the height of land and depth of water. Hence the 'feeling' of when the seasons starts varies all around the world.

But there is no official winter or summer dates in the UK.

[TimberWolf]

Sorry, TW, you're way out. In Britain, the traditional start of winter has never been the 3rd week of December.

winter (season) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
In the Northern Hemisphere, it is commonly regarded as extending from the winter solstice (year’s shortest day), December 21 or 22, to the vernal equinox.

But there is no official winter or summer dates in the UK.

I said traditional, not official. In fact I believe I specifically said not official.

[minestrone]

Got a pair of North Face slippers.

I may look like a wazzock but my toes are warm.

[RichardCranium]

winter (season) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
In the Northern Hemisphere, it is commonly regarded as extending from the winter solstice (year’s shortest day), December 21 or 22, to the vernal equinox.

I said traditional, not official. In fact I believe I specifically said not official.

As I said, it is a modern republican's - in this case Merkin's - idea of the start of winter. The Encyclopedia Britannica is a Merkin publication. (FFS, they cannot even spell Encyclopædia correctly.)

[Zippy]

No, it isn't. It is when, in the Northern Hemisphere, the axis is parallel to the line from the Earth to the Sun, meaning the day length equals the night length. (That makes it the shortest day.) Our non-circular orbit around the sun is not part of that.

In the Southern hemisphere, because their pole, the South pole, is sunward, they get their longest day.

Oh dear. You can be such a twunt someimes.

[RichardCranium]

Oh dear. You can be such a twunt someimes.

Eh?

Why?

The plane of Earth's North/South axis passes through the Sun on the Solstices. That's what a solstice is.

Our orbit is not circular. The nearest / furthest parts of thatorbit do not co-incide with the solstices.

WTF is your problem?

[TimberWolf]

As I said, it is a modern republican's - in this case Merkin's - idea of the start of winter. The Encyclopedia Britannica is a Merkin publication. (FFS, they cannot even spell Encyclopædia correctly.)

It's also the period used in astronomy for the winter season.

[TimberWolf]

No, it isn't. It is when, in the Northern Hemisphere, the axis is parallel to the line from the Earth to the Sun, meaning the day length equals the night length. (That makes it the shortest day.) Our non-circular orbit around the sun is not part of that.

In the Southern hemisphere, because their pole, the South pole, is sunward, they get their longest day.

The Earth's axis is generally defined to be the axis which the Earth spins around, which is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. The hemisphere is irrelevant, they are both perpendicular to the ecliptic plane.

[RichardCranium]

It's also the period used in astronomy for the winter season.

Your post that started this thread was alluding to the need to acknowledge winter's start in the UK as having already occurred.

I am trying to agree with you.

Do you now want to disagree with yourself, or are you putting up straw men for me to knock down?

The heat we receive from the sun is at its minimum on 21st (sometimes 20th) December. The land, and the sea even more so, hold the heat they were given earlier in the year resulting on the overall temperature having a minimum somewhere in January.

The weather we experience varies year-on-year but the average cold point is not 21st December; it is a few weeks later but it is not 6 weeks later so the Winter Solstice occurs a few weeks into the coldest 13 weeks.

It is not the start of the cold period, just as it is not the mid-point either, in the UK's climate.

You can go for the astronomical definition, the astrological definition, the thermological definition, the Clinton's Cards definition, the calendrical (the most dodgy of all!) definition or whatever you fancy.

The context you were using in your original post was meteorological: we've had snow for about 3 weeks so you were suggesting winter started at the end of November, this year.

The actual start of winter must a local, human and year-specific definition.

[RichardCranium]

The Earth's axis is generally defined to be the axis which the Earth spins around, which is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. The hemisphere is irrelevant, they are both perpendicular to the ecliptic plane.

FFS.

The hemisphere is completely relevant because in the Southern Hemisphere, it is SUMMER.