Reply to: Comments anyone?

[xoggoth]

Opposed to Christian or any other religious interference in society. My previous comments on Mary Whitehouse are pretty unrepeatable.

The very little I know of Judaism, it looks an awful religion, full of daft irrational rules like Islam, and as for that "god's chosen people" stuff... But Jews appear happy to get on with their own lives and leave the rest of us alone so that makes their beliefs entirely their own business.

Christianity used to be the main problem but, partly because Christianity is in retreat and partly because most Christians accept the separation of church and state it is no longer a threat.

The current threat to our secular society is Islam.

[BoredBloke]

"Some of those religious freaks are sick gets. I suppose it's the result of poor education and ignorance. Some Catholics seem to revel in the image of a man being crucified. Nice."

That may be true, but you won't catch me breaking out the hammer and nails just yet. I guess I actually like the little spongers in our house too much to do that to them.

[Joe Black]

A very pragmatic view in many ways Xog, and perhaps, and that is a big perhaps, one that might provide more fruit in the long term...it's hard to say, and the games of diplomats etc is not something I'd recommend myself for.

For the rest, the UN etc, well I'm more an idealist, I'd prefer it worked, that it enforced those basic rights and had the strength/guts to carry them out. Unfortunately given that the UN is made up of, amongst other things, the people who cause some of the issues in the first place (the west included) then I don't have high hopes as things stand.

I don't believe in any religion, but some times...honestly I wish there was a God who came down and said simply "Not in my name!"

[Fungus]

I think you are still missing the point on Islam Fungus.

[snip]

Most Muslims I have met have been moderate in all senses. I have been told by a few that Islam is the perfect faith as it is the climax to the earlier prophets of Judaism (Moses) and Christianity (Jesus). But most religious types are IMO arrogant. You could say that Judaism is malign as the pure form speaks of the racial superiority of Jews. And fundamental Christians are similar. Both Christianity and Islam are proselytising faiths, unlike Judaism. Look at the damage that Christianity has done (or at least has been used to justify, which is not quite the same thing). My view is that it is the interpretatation, since all these Holy books are myths. But you have encouraged me to look into this. If I can get my backside into gear, I'll sniff out a book on the issue.

[xoggoth]

Depends what you have in mind Joe. Any country is perfectly entitled to deal or trade with who it likes, so pressure in that sense ok, but on direct military threats other than in national interests? I am mostly (Rhuanda might have worked) VERY Star Trecky on that. I believe you have to take a long term view. It may all seem very noble but once you start interfering over repression, human rights, child poverty etc etc there is no end to the control you have to exert over other's cultures. Attitudes take generations to change.

As for the UN, War crimes tribunals, International courts, EU and every other supra national body, I'd abolish the lot of em.

[xoggoth]

I think you are still missing the point on Islam Fungus. They may be moderate in the sense that they do not support terrorism, but many will believe in the superiority of Islam and the idea that our society should be an Islamic society. Once we get that, and the demographic trends are not good, you will soon find that their idea of a rational, tolerant and democratic society is nothing like what we would call by these terms.

Islam is an irrational and malign philosophy which threatens to undo much of the social progress of the last 300 years. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, check out Islam's teachings on the moderate sites, check out what freedom and tolerance and democracy really means in the many Islamic societies.

I said above that societies work best when left to evolve in their own directions. That is true for us too. We have a right to stand up for our own principles and cultures and traditions. About time most of started doing it.

[Joe Black]

It may sound a bit Star Trecky but I don't agree with cultural interference generally because I think societies work better when they evolve in a way that is in keeping with their own traditions.

An there is the rub or conundrum as some might say. We have a UN, a UN (universal) declaration of rights for both man/woman and child...so do you take the view that cultures should be allowed to 'evolve' or that basic rights/protections are sacrosanct and someone should be intervening, in this case to protect children/people from abuse?

What I am damn sure of is that we should stop letting them drag us back into it. To many cultural defects are being imported into the UK and given an undeserved respect, or at least tolerance, out of political correctness.

I'll second, or third that...

[Fungus]

Here is an interesting site with quotations from the Koran.

Stoning and other things to do

Disgusting, and practised in Nigeria too. I did not view the video.

But this really is a cultural issue. The bible has some quite extreme statements that most of us longer take literally. The problem with Islam is the interpretation within a cultural and social context. Many Muslims are moderate and not so literal, though sadly it does seem to be interpreted more literally than Christianity.

Fungus

[Fungus]

Quite agree many third world practices and beliefs are appalling but not sure we should be "dragging people out of the stone age". It may sound a bit Star Trecky but I don't agree with cultural interference generally because I think societies work better when they evolve in a way that is in keeping with their own traditions.

What I am damn sure of is that we should stop letting them drag us back into it. To many cultural defects are being imported into the UK and given an undeserved respect, or at least tolerance, out of political correctness.

I quite agree. It takes more than an invasion and a few imposed from the outside elections to change the entire mindset of a people. They must want to change.

The Sunday Times sent a reporter oop North to pose as a potential Muslim extremist, and found several religious preachers and numerous young people openly praising the 7/7 suicide bombers. I think we might have a serious problem in some of the so-called Muslim ghettos. Most UK Muslims are moderate, but it looks as if the extremists are not so few in number.

Fungus

[Clog II The Avenger]

What good muslims should do.

I can't help wondering whether the Koran actually demands this demonstration of faith or whether it is just the twisted ideas of the local Imam?

Here is an interesting site with quotations from the Koran.

Stoning and other things to do

[xoggoth]

Quite agree many third world practices and beliefs are appalling but not sure we should be "dragging people out of the stone age". It may sound a bit Star Trecky but I don't agree with cultural interference generally because I think societies work better when they evolve in a way that is in keeping with their own traditions.

What I am damn sure of is that we should stop letting them drag us back into it. To many cultural defects are being imported into the UK and given an undeserved respect, or at least tolerance, out of political correctness.

[Fungus]

Moral absolutes? Cultural relativism is nothing but tolerance. The modern notion of tolerance is indifference. Indifference to primitive and barbaric practices in this case. It’s a shame we don’t have the moral backbone or convictions in our own (superior) culture to drag certain people out of the Stone Age, as we would have done in the past.

This is barbarity pure and simple and has no place in the modern world.

I see we pretty much agree. In fact I suspect most people on the forum would agree.

"Cultural relativism is nothing but tolerance."

At its extreme it says that all cultures are equal. But they're not. It's taken us centuries to create a sophisticated legal, social and political system which is superior to the degenerate authoritarian regimes we see in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere.

I do worry that in a few decades power - i.e. fuel - wars will start, and our civilisation will break down, with anarchy ruling. Especially if global warming turns out to be real, and the UK suffers an extreme cooling.

Fungus

[sasguru]

Moral absolutes? Cultural relativism is nothing but tolerance. The modern notion of tolerance is indifference. Indifference to primitive and barbaric practices in this case. It’s a shame we don’t have the moral backbone or convictions in our own (superior) culture to drag certain people out of the Stone Age, as we would have done in the past.

This is barbarity pure and simple and has no place in the modern world.

I was being ironic

[Joe Black]

Sorry, forgot to add source: Daily mail website http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

Direct link here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/gal...n_page_id=1055

"In the town of Nabatiyeh, Lebanon, a father comforts his crying baby after slashing the child on the head."

As I've said before, when I see such things it's like looking back at something from the dark ages...at times I just can not imagine that people still believe/do such things because of some stupid faith/belief, or because some stupid book/priest/imam told them to.

Seeing this for me also raises the question of whether it's not so silly an idea after all that people from such, or any similar culture, be expected to do more than pass a simple language/history test to show that they can integrate into a modern society...especially when they consider wilfully cutting a childs head to be part of everyday life...

[Nicky G]

Cultural relativism, anyone?

Moral absolutes? Cultural relativism is nothing but tolerance. The modern notion of tolerance is indifference. Indifference to primitive and barbaric practices in this case. It’s a shame we don’t have the moral backbone or convictions in our own (superior) culture to drag certain people out of the Stone Age, as we would have done in the past.

This is barbarity pure and simple and has no place in the modern world.