Reply to: FTSE at 9 month low ...

[TimberWolf]

Is this right?

Web of European Debt

Greece Debt $ 236 Billion
Lenders
France $ 75 Billion
Germany $ 45 Billion
Britain $ 15 Billion
Greece owes to Ireland $ 8.5 Billion
Greece owes to Italy $ 6.9 Billion
Greece owes to Spain $ 1.3 Billion
Greece owes to Portugal $ 9.7 Billion

Italy $ 1.4 Trillion
Owed to
France $ 511 Billion, almost 20% of its GDP
Germany $ 190 Billion
Britain $ 77 Billion
Italy owes to Greece $ 0.7 Billion
Italy Owes to Portugal $ 5.2 Billion
Italy owes to Ireland $ 46 Billion
Italy to Spain to $ 47 Billion

Spain $ 1.1 Trillion
Borrowed From
Germany $ 238
France $ 220
Britain $ 114
Spain owes to Portugal $ 28 Billion
Spain to owes Italy $ 31 Billion
Spain owes to Greece $ 0.4 Billion
Spain owes to Ireland $ 30 Billion

Ireland $ 867 Billion
Lenders
Britain $ 188 Billion
Germany $ 184 Billion
France $ 60 Billion
Ireland owes to Greece $ 0.8 Billion
Ireland owes to Italy $ 18 Billion
Ireland owes to Portugal $ 22 Billion
Ireland owes to Spain $ 16 Billion


Portugal $ 286 Billion
Owed to
Germany $ 47
France $ 45
Britain $ 24
Portugal owes to Italy $ 6.7 Billion
Portugal to Spain $ 86 Billion
Portugal owes to Greece $ 0.1 Billion
Portugal owes to Ireland $ 5.4 Billion
Who ships through Greece? | LinkedIn Answers | LinkedIn

And if so does anyone fancy doing some cancelling out and see who owes what?

Part of it in picture form here:


Does our debt include our debtors (in the unlikely event they pay us back)?

[Doggy Styles]

A truely European solution!

Imagine how it burns inside them that we aren't in their poxy eurozone as its chickens come home to roost.

[Flashman]

If you seriously think this is just about Greece, you either have your head in the sand or you are taking the mick. There are serious macro-economic issues at play here - particularly in the eurozone....I still recall very clued up guys predicting that the euro would be the cause either the break up or reinventing of the EU back when the euro came to life.

I realise the level of economic awareness here is at kindergarten level - but the fact is that if you have a cross-border currency like the euro yet allow each country to individually set its own it's fiscal policy, sooner or later the whole thing breaks. Either the currency goes or you have one fiscal policy. So in the case of the euro - either there is one fiscal policy for the whole eurozone (which will lead to the breakup of the EU if that is attempted), or the EU goes (which could also lead to the breakup of the EU).

So couple that with the level of debt in most EU countries, and the fact that North and South Korea are playing handbags, and it is small wonder that the markets are in turmoil. I expect it will settle down....but it will take a while
. As the markets have crashed, expect to see a small bit of good news make them go the other way - briefly.

Don't worry the EU has come up with a cunning plan.

Create an EU Tax on the lazy, workshy, bankers in London.

Take this money and use it to clear the debts of the hardworking peoples of Spain and Greece.




Smashes up the City of London. Gets French and German banks out of trouble. Makes the Spanish and Greeks happy.

A truely European solution!

[minestrone]

Didnt "they" also say that banks could not fail?

Well in the main they did not, everything was done so they did not fail.

[Fred Bloggs]

I don't think the euro can fail, adopting it was a one way process and I don't think they can ever go back. It will just be too difficult.

They will move towards a central fiscal policy, it may take years and it will not be by choice but the pain of cycles like these will force their arms.

I don't think the markets will grow until they are sure there will not be another Greece, Spain has to survive a year to prove that, I think, so I expect the markets to sit where they are after this cycle of panic is over.

That's a likely scenario, I agree. In the meantime, I'll just enjoy the 5% or so dividends.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't think the euro can fail, adopting it was a one way process and I don't think they can ever go back. It will just be too difficult.

They will move towards a central fiscal policy, it may take years and it will not be by choice but the pain of cycles like these will force their arms.

I don't think the markets will grow until they are sure there will not be another Greece, Spain has to survive a year to prove that, I think, so I expect the markets to sit where they are after this cycle of panic is over.

Didnt "they" also say that banks could not fail?

[DodgyAgent]

If you seriously think this is just about Greece, you either have your head in the sand or you are taking the mick. There are serious macro-economic issues at play here - particularly in the eurozone....I still recall very clued up guys predicting that the euro would be the cause either the break up or reinventing of the EU back when the euro came to life.

I realise the level of economic awareness here is at kindergarten level - but the fact is that if you have a cross-border currency like the euro yet allow each country to individually set its own it's fiscal policy, sooner or later the whole thing breaks. Either the currency goes or you have one fiscal policy. So in the case of the euro - either there is one fiscal policy for the whole eurozone (which will lead to the breakup of the EU if that is attempted), or the EU goes (which could also lead to the breakup of the EU).

So couple that with the level of debt in most EU countries, and the fact that North and South Korea are playing handbags, and it is small wonder that the markets are in turmoil. I expect it will settle down....but it will take a while. As the markets have crashed, expect to see a small bit of good news make them go the other way - briefly.

Are you Simon Heffer by any chance?

The collapse of the euro would open the door to democracy - Telegraph

[minestrone]

I don't think the euro can fail, adopting it was a one way process and I don't think they can ever go back. It will just be too difficult.

They will move towards a central fiscal policy, it may take years and it will not be by choice but the pain of cycles like these will force their arms.

I don't think the markets will grow until they are sure there will not be another Greece, Spain has to survive a year to prove that, I think, so I expect the markets to sit where they are after this cycle of panic is over.

[Fred Bloggs]

I like these threads, you keep selling and I'll keep buying. I think Greece defaulting on a few quids worth of dodgy debt is a pin p r i c k compared to Lehman Brothers going bump. In fact, I think that with 20:20 hindsight I really do not think that the US authorities would have allowed Lehmans to have gone bankrupt if they knew what the fallout would be.

[snaw]

In the big economic picture, Greece is a flea bite.

I remember people saying something similar as the credit crunch started unraveling ...

[Fred Bloggs]

It's been obvious since day 1 that the euro would fail sooner or later. But that doesn't mean that economic power house companies in Europe (or the UK) are not going to quit making lots of profits any time soon. Companys like Siemens, Areva, Vodafone, Nokia, Shell, GSK, Novartis etc aren't goiong away anytime soon. In the big economic picture, Greece is a flea bite.

[PM-Junkie]

Time to buy back in. I just have done. Probably it's time to buy back into Europe but I haven't just yet. The end of the workd doesn't arrive just because Greece goes t*ts up. This is a classic contrarian buying opportunity. Fill yer boots.

If you seriously think this is just about Greece, you either have your head in the sand or you are taking the mick. There are serious macro-economic issues at play here - particularly in the eurozone....I still recall very clued up guys predicting that the euro would be the cause either the break up or reinventing of the EU back when the euro came to life.

I realise the level of economic awareness here is at kindergarten level - but the fact is that if you have a cross-border currency like the euro yet allow each country to individually set its own it's fiscal policy, sooner or later the whole thing breaks. Either the currency goes or you have one fiscal policy. So in the case of the euro - either there is one fiscal policy for the whole eurozone (which will lead to the breakup of the EU if that is attempted), or the EU goes (which could also lead to the breakup of the EU).

So couple that with the level of debt in most EU countries, and the fact that North and South Korea are playing handbags, and it is small wonder that the markets are in turmoil. I expect it will settle down....but it will take a while. As the markets have crashed, expect to see a small bit of good news make them go the other way - briefly.

[TimberWolf]

Sold my RBS and LLoyds near the top, waiting for the next bottom. My bets are on RBS: 30p, LLoyds: 40p and Barclays: £2.20. Will wait till they go up by 50 or 60% and then sell again before the next dip (probably some banking crisis in sweden or something).

I bet there are plenty of clued-up (or better, a source of inside information) people making fortunes at the moment doing this kind of thing. The volatile bank share prices of last year would have been an obvious one to them no doubt.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Sold my RBS and LLoyds near the top, waiting for the next bottom. My bets are on RBS: 30p, LLoyds: 40p and Barclays: £2.20. Will wait till they go up by 50 or 60% and then sell again before the next dip (probably some banking crisis in sweden or something).

[Jeebo72]

...as investors realise that huge parts of Europe are free-loading, that there are ticking time-bombs in the European financial system and on fears of a new Korean war

FTSE hits near nine-month low | Reuters

Cash rich contractors keep buying all the way down... you'll make loads on the up turn... there will be an up turn ...