Reply to: Just how much financial tulip is Greece in?

[threaded]

That would be the moral basis that it's okay to kill your own son if your god commands it? (just teasing, Abraham, he was just testing you!)
That it's okay for your daughters to get drunk and sleep with you? (Lucky Lot...)
That you are required to kill gays? (Leviticus 20:13)
That you should cut the hands off thieves? (Quran 5:38)
That if a woman gets raped it's her own fault unless there are four men to corroborate her story? (Quran 4:15)

Well, you might disagree with parts of these moral codes but they've managed to produce stable societies. Which is part of my point. If you start to pick and choose which parts of the moral code you'll adhere to is what has landed us with the banking crisis.

(Taking statements out of context or from poor translations doesn't help. The stuff about Leviticus and gays is a prime example: he was talking about temple prostitution not gay sex as such.)

[d000hg]

That would be the moral basis that it's okay to kill your own son if your god commands it? (just teasing, Abraham, he was just testing you!)
That it's okay for your daughters to get drunk and sleep with you? (Lucky Lot...)
That you are required to kill gays? (Leviticus 20:13)
That you should cut the hands off thieves? (Quran 5:38)
That if a woman gets raped it's her own fault unless there are four men to corroborate her story? (Quran 4:15)

With well thought out, balanced arguments like that who could possibly disagree?


Besides, world religions teach that morals exist because of God, regardless if you believe it or not. Saying atheists don't have morals is therefore not rational from a religious viewpoint.

On the other hand from an atheist viewpoint... life on earth is a savage and desperate struggle for survival. Morals are a man-made crutch for the weak who need something to help them believe life has some kind of point*, and of course without absolute truth right & wrong is purely subjective and therefore all morality is is a way to make life a bit easier.


*oh wait, that sounds like what atheists say about those who do believe in God. Swings & roundabouts, eh?

[Mich the Tester]

This is what I have said about the Greek "crisis". More formally, why indeed should they be forced into a Northern European economic model?

I'm sure there are lots of people in southern Europe asking themselves this question now.

I lived in the south of Switzerland for quite a while; there you see the cultural differences between northern and southern Europe quite markedly. Literally, drive through a tunnel and on the other side of the mountain you have a different language and a totally different culture. Southern Europeans are NOT generally lazier than northerners; in fact when they work, many of them work very hard, but they don't believe in working, working and working until they drop as some in the north seem to do. They just don't really need continual economic growth. They do need to be able to adjust their currency to compete in manufacturing and in tourism, as Italy and Spain have done in the past.

[expat]

When they sit down under a tree on a warm day with a bottle of wine, some fresh fish and salad and a few chums for an evening meal, will they really care about being broke?

After all, Italy’s not balanced the books since the fall of Rome, but life seems OK there.

This is what I have said about the Greek "crisis". More formally, why indeed should they be forced into a Northern European economic model?

More generally, if you think, as we often allow ourselves to do, that money is the most important thing, then you are missing a lot. I must be getting old. (not gettin gold).

They always used to say that in Britain the situation is serious but not a crisis. In Italy it is a crisis, but that is not serious.

[meridian]

Without some moral basis that comes from an established religion, yes.

That would be the moral basis that it's okay to kill your own son if your god commands it? (just teasing, Abraham, he was just testing you!)
That it's okay for your daughters to get drunk and sleep with you? (Lucky Lot...)
That you are required to kill gays? (Leviticus 20:13)
That you should cut the hands off thieves? (Quran 5:38)
That if a woman gets raped it's her own fault unless there are four men to corroborate her story? (Quran 4:15)

[Mich the Tester]

Contrast with the UK. GDP. Higher GDP. Higher population. Economic growth. Increase GDP. GDP. GDP.

Yep, there's more to life than GDP, but perhaps it's more important in northern Europe; people spend most of their time indoors as the weather's generally not all that great so they want their grand houses filled with luxury. In southern Europe you see people going out every evening, eating nice meals, dressing well and generally enjoying life while living in homes that we'd consider to be slums. They don't really seem to be all that bothered about posh houses; they only use the house for sleeping so as long as it's dry and warm, who cares?

[TimberWolf]

Indeed. But there's a serious point here. I once read an article in the Economist suggesting that Italy has never really got to grips with its economic problems, partly because despite economic hardship and difficulty in finding jobs, life is basically pretty good when the family get round the table for their weekend meal. The climate’s perfect, scenery is fantastic, food and wine are simply the best and the way of life is more than bearable, even for those with modest means. Anything that might threaten that, like having to work a longer hours, having to give up on long lunches or afternoon sleep, cutting granddad’s pension etc might seem a good idea in the heat of the moment, but when they really think about it they put it off until some time in the future that never arrives.

Contrast with the UK. GDP. Higher GDP. Higher population. Economic growth. Increase GDP. GDP. GDP.

[Mich the Tester]

Well there's a difference, Italians have style we have tracksuits and benefit cheats

Indeed. But there's a serious point here. I once read an article in the Economist suggesting that Italy has never really got to grips with its economic problems, partly because despite economic hardship and difficulty in finding jobs, life is basically pretty good when the family get round the table for their weekend meal. The climate’s perfect, scenery is fantastic, food and wine are simply the best (and cost f**k all seeing as most families have a garden somewhere or a farmer in the family)and the way of life is more than bearable, even for those with modest means. Anything that might threaten that, like having to work a longer hours, having to give up on long lunches or afternoon sleep, cutting granddad’s pension etc might seem a good idea in the heat of the moment, but when they really think about it they put it off until some time in the future that never arrives.

[scooterscot]

After all, Italy’s not balanced the books since the fall of Rome, but life seems OK there.

Well there's a difference, Italians have style we have tracksuits and benefit cheats

[Mich the Tester]

So what are we saying here? Greece is in the tulip or do they just need a new toaster?

When they sit down under a tree on a warm day with a bottle of wine, some fresh fish and salad and a few chums for an evening meal, will they really care about being broke?

After all, Italy’s not balanced the books since the fall of Rome, but life seems OK there.

[scooterscot]

So what are we saying here? Greece is in the tulip or do they just need a new toaster?

[threaded]

It sounds like quite an extreme statement. I can understand your reasoning, that people might want something to make their lives seem worthwhile, but I really struggle with the idea that people need the promise of paradise or the threat of damnation to keep on living.

Historically, it does seem that way. Sad really.

[Mich the Tester]

Without some moral basis that comes from an established religion, yes.

It sounds like quite an extreme statement. I can understand your reasoning, that people might want something to make their lives seem worthwhile, but I really struggle with the idea that people need the promise of paradise or the threat of damnation to keep on living.

[threaded]

You mean you think that if less intelligent people are atheists they'll top themselves?

Without some moral basis that comes from an established religion, yes.

[Mich the Tester]

Because they lack a moral basis, and people who are not part of the elite cannot see any point in their existence.

You mean you think that if less intelligent people are atheists they'll top themselves?