Reply to: OFFICIAL Debate #1 thread

[smalldog]

Are not cost effective FTFY.

Private health in this country is complimentary to the NHS for those that want to pay, you're suggesting that the NHS is in some way technically inferior which simply isn't true.



How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, I am perfectly aware that breast cancer is considered serious.

Im quoting you GJ, you said anything serious and private doesnt cut it, you have to go to the NHS as they dont have the resources. Sorry mate thats total tulip...Some of the best and most experienced consultant surgeons work in the private sector..

nothing to do with cost effective, more like they dont have the funds to research cutting edge technologies and procedures. The private sector introduce it, the NHS inherit it after a fashion...

[gingerjedi]

not true, for me anyway. ive gone private in a completely private hospital (BMIHealthcare Blackheath to be precise) and totally enjoyable, as enjoyable as a hospital can be of course...

and all because the NHS could not provide me with the non invasive surgery I could get privately. So thats flawed argument im afraid, not only was I not in an NHS hospital but if I had gone NHS which of course are so wonderful as I keep hearing, I would have been cut to ribbons as their technologies aren't as advanced..Did I get a contribution towards the surgery from all my NI payments, of course not...

Are not cost effective FTFY.

Private health in this country is complimentary to the NHS for those that want to pay, you're suggesting that the NHS is in some way technically inferior which simply isn't true.

and Im guessing by you saying something serious you are excluding breast cancer in that case, just trivial condition I assume....god how ignorant

How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, I am perfectly aware that breast cancer is considered serious.

[dang65]

The trouble with this "I pay more than anyone else for the Welfare State, and I don't even use it!" cliche is that people don't even realise that they are using it. Everyone you interact with, employ, work for, buy things from, sell things to, everyone who fixes your phone, your plumbing, your car, your computer... on and on... all these people were educated by the State, paid for by you or your parents or your grandparents.

The private healthcare you love so much... where do those doctors and nurses come from? Most of them will have come through State schools and medical training, then gone private for the cash. All those people above that serve you are kept in good working order by the NHS which you pay for. When you don't need to employ them and they can't get any other work, the Welfare State maintains them until you do need to employ them again, et voila, they are available and haven't emigrated in order to survive.

And so on. Surely people grasp that basic concept, don't they? The Welfare State is for the good of us all. Duh.

[dang65]

So anyway moving on to Question Time, are John Sergeant and Jo Brand the same person?

They had a couple of episodes of QI where they got lookalikes sitting next to each other on the teams, including Jo Brand and John Sergeant. Ben Miller and Rob Brydon were the others, and they fell in love with each other/themselves and had a big snog. In a comedy way, of course.

[threaded]

agreed and it would be interesting to do the maths and work out what the level is and therefore if its worth it for both sides.

As I understand it, in the UK the progressive taxation regime means that it is not.

In DK the ramp up is not as sharp as the UK and they still had to give significant tax incentives for private medicine to start up again. The next problem was retaining the good staff in the public part of the system. The good people basically all handed their notice in within a period of three months or something. Big brouhaha, they ended up having to pay the private hospitals to treat the public patients. An extra amusement I found was some politicians had to do really fancy accounting to make it look like a cost, because the reality was the private sector were doing the operations and treatments cheaper and to a higher quality level.

[smalldog]

Problem is that the people who could get the cheap insurance outside the welfare state are also those who actually pay by far the most for it. So to make it worthwhile for them to take out private insurance the drop in their mandatory payment to the welfare state would have to be to a level that would mean a reduction in the welfare state.

HTH

agreed and it would be interesting to do the maths and work out what the level is and therefore if its worth it for both sides.

[d000hg]

I noticed lots of Gordon and Nick agreeing with each other - clear to me they're planning another Lib-Lab pact.

Gordon kept saying that they were in agreement, Nick kept saying they weren't, even Dave made a joke about it!

[threaded]

Sigh back, derrr I do understand that, but if a proportionate amount of people pulled out then the load would reduce, therefore reducing cost...Not everyone can afford to pay for their own private care so thats an extreme comparison, its not just the rich paying for the NHS. From the moment you start paying PAYE you start contributing to the welfare state. If everyone pulled out then maybe but that would never happen, some people would not want to go private and not down to decisions based on cost or their wealth.

We should have an option to pull out of the NHS and go private, but pay a mandatory minimum contribution to the welfare state to ensure its continued funding for all those who cannot afford to go private.

What people should not be expected to do is pay for private care such as BUPA and then be expected to effectively pay again for a service they will not use. And yes BUPA etc doesnt cover everything at the moment but I would pay for my own GP visits (that amounts to 2 in the last 10 years) and A&E including ambulance costs as required.

Problem is that the people who could get the cheap insurance outside the welfare state are also those who actually pay by far the most for it. So to make it worthwhile for them to take out private insurance the drop in their mandatory payment to the welfare state would have to be to a level that would mean a reduction in the welfare state.

HTH

[smalldog]

What was the operation if I may ask as this is important to your point I believe.

Minestrone, I had major veins removed from both legs from ankle to groin, pooling blood in the legs, really unpleasant all in all...NHS can only do that by basically slicing your legs open from top to bottom....Privately they can do it with non invasive laser surgery...still trussed up like a turkey in bandages for two weeks tho, cant avoid that!!! :-)

[minestrone]

not true, for me anyway. ive gone private in a completely private hospital and totally enjoyable, as enjoyable as a hospital can be of course...

and all because the NHS could not provide me with the non invasive surgery I could get privately. So thats flawed argument im afraid, not only was I not in an NHS hospital but if I had gone NHS which of course are so wonderful as I keep hearing, I would have been cut to ribbons as their technologies aren't as advanced..Did I get a contribution towards the surgery from all my NI payments, of course not...

What was the operation if I may ask as this is important to your point I believe.

[smalldog]

Private health care in this country amounts to nothing more than a bed on the posh wing of an NHS hospital and a queue jump for non life threatening conditions.

If there was something seriously wrong with you only the NHS have the resources to treat you effectively.

not true, for me anyway. ive gone private in a completely private hospital (BMIHealthcare Blackheath to be precise) and totally enjoyable, as enjoyable as a hospital can be of course...

and all because the NHS could not provide me with the non invasive surgery I could get privately. So thats flawed argument im afraid, not only was I not in an NHS hospital but if I had gone NHS which of course are so wonderful as I keep hearing, I would have been cut to ribbons as their technologies aren't as advanced..Did I get a contribution towards the surgery from all my NI payments, of course not...

and Im guessing by you saying something serious you are excluding breast cancer in that case, just trivial condition I assume....god how ignorant

[smalldog]

Exactly the same argument for private education. Fact is, it's the pay-but-don't-use folks whose contribution is most needed and without which the system would fail.

Do you know if any analysis has ever been carried out to prove that would be the case? There are too many throw away "that wont work" comments associated with trying something different.

So if the system failed because people who dont use something opt out then surely the system was never right in the first place so needs addressing. Its a flawed system so we shouldnt just let it fester for fear of breaking it by trying to improve it. If we took that approach in IT most projects would never see the light of day, sometimes governments have to grow a pair and take some risk and potential pain. It doesnt work now so what have they got to lose by trying small scale pilot, if they havent already.

[Platypus]

We should have an option to pull out of the NHS and go private, but pay a mandatory minimum contribution to the welfare state to ensure its continued funding for all those who cannot afford to go private.

What people should not be expected to do is pay for private care such as BUPA and then be expected to effectively pay again for a service they will not use. And yes BUPA etc doesnt cover everything at the moment but I would pay for my own GP visits (that amounts to 2 in the last 10 years) and A&E including ambulance costs as required.

Exactly the same argument for private education. Fact is, it's the pay-but-don't-use folks whose contribution is most needed and without which the system would fail.

[Platypus]

So me and my partner are paying £2k each into the NHS each year according to Nick Clegg...So why the hell cant I opt out of something I havent used in years and put that £4k between us into a private medical policy...so much for choice

It's money in the bank for when you get old and frail and need the NHS. Or your dad/mum/sister. Maggie tried the whole opting-out policy - it failed and was hugely unpopular.

[gingerjedi]

Sigh back, derrr I do understand that, but if a proportionate amount of people pulled out then the load would reduce, therefore reducing cost...Not everyone can afford to pay for their own private care so thats an extreme comparison, its not just the rich paying for the NHS. From the moment you start paying PAYE you start contributing to the welfare state. If everyone pulled out then maybe but that would never happen, some people would not want to go private and not down to decisions based on cost or their wealth.

We should have an option to pull out of the NHS and go private, but pay a mandatory minimum contribution to the welfare state to ensure its continued funding for all those who cannot afford to go private.

What people should not be expected to do is pay for private care such as BUPA and then be expected to effectively pay again for a service they will not use. And yes BUPA etc doesnt cover everything at the moment but I would pay for my own GP visits (that amounts to 2 in the last 10 years) and A&E including ambulance costs as required.

Private health care in this country amounts to nothing more than a bed on the posh wing of an NHS hospital and a queue jump for non life threatening conditions.

If there was something seriously wrong with you only the NHS have the resources to treat you effectively.