Reply to: The view from America

[Paddy]

Had the helicopter incident been in a true war situation; the crew would not have fired a shot in a similar situation because if rules of engagement were broken there would be retaliation from the opposing side. This was not a war situation so the army has free rein to shoot who they like and the press is their number one target. Had the victims been insurgents then they would have clearly seen and heard the helicopters; they would have knowledge of the sight and fire capabilities of the helicopers therefore, they would not be casually walking down the street.

The fact is the US forces are unable (probably incapable) of fighting on the ground and fighting the insurgents so they resort the systematically putting fear into the population using airborne fire power.

The only British soldier who has even spoken to me about his experience in Iraq was a fellow contractor. He was based is Basra. He told me that basically the soldiers were too tulip scared to leave the base; they only left the base when the press were there. The “patrol” would consist of a mad dash around the city and get back to the base ASAP.

[TimberWolf]

So basically you are willing to argue based up on your stereotypes.

As I previously said there have been cases where British helicopters have fired on british troops. Bit of a f up that ehh?

Different situation. You are the one trying to generalise based on Ireland. Not that I recall you saying anything about British helicopter pilots or providing a citation.

[minestrone]

Sure, many cases of that sort likely exist, but that doesn't mean British troops would have acted as the Americans did as shown in the video, which isn't incompatible with what I would expect of Americans.

So basically you are willing to argue based up on your stereotypes.

As I previously said there have been cases where British helicopters have fired on british troops. Bit of a f up that ehh?

[TimberWolf]

Because in Britain's soldiers come from high-morale , high-education families and go to war on their own will ? And not for some silly reason like having to enlist in the army to "make the ends meet" ? Most of them are probably princes or other royal family. Or perhaps because British soldiers are not trained killers but tourists who happen to be on helicopters as part of tourist tours ? Surely tourists won't just shoot at people ?

The helicopter pilot would probably be Eton educated and be saying, I say chaps, don't go shooting civilians. As opposed to playing Wagner in the background and shooting anything moving.

[TimberWolf]

UK armed forces in Iraq have shot and killed Iraqi civilians, including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding celebration, in situations where there was no apparent threat to themselves or others, says a new report from Amnesty International.

Many cases of civilian killings by UK armed forces have not even been investigated. Investigations by the Royal Military Police (RMP) have been secretive, with families given little or no information about their progress. Amnesty International is calling for a civilian-led investigation into all killings by UK armed forces, with the findings made public.

"Far from being liberated, the people of Iraq continue to live in fear and insecurity," Amnesty International said.

http://www.amnesty.org/


Numerous killings by UK armed forces and armed groups. One such case is that of eight-year-old Hanan Saleh Matrud, reportedly shot by a soldier from B Company of the First Battalion of the King's Regiment in August 2003. An eyewitness disputes the UK army's claim that she may have been hit accidentally by a warning shot. He told Amnesty International that Hanan was killed when a soldier aimed and fired a shot at her from around 60 metres away.


In January this year Ghanem Kadhem Kati' a 22-year-old unarmed man, was reportedly shot in the back outside his front door while celebrating a family wedding. UK soldiers fired five shots at him from 50 yards away, An RMP investigation is ongoing, but relatives have not been informed about the procedures for claiming compensation.

Families are frequently given no information on how to lodge a compensation claim for the killing of their relatives. In some cases they are given wrong information, including that responsibility for compensation would rest with a new Iraqi government. The Area Claims Officer, to whom claims must be submitted, is situated in an area difficult to access for ordinary civilians (Basra airport) and there is little explanatory information provided on the claims process in English or in Arabic. As a result, people interviewed had little confidence in the compensation system.

Sure, many cases of that sort likely exist, but that doesn't mean British troops would have acted as the Americans did as shown in the video, which isn't incompatible with what I would expect of Americans.

[Paddy]

You're a loony. I'll repeat again, I don't believe our troops would have acted as the Americans did in that video. They aren't as gung-ho. Feel free to rant on as many half baked issues you have with the highly professional British Army if you want though.

UK armed forces in Iraq have shot and killed Iraqi civilians, including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding celebration, in situations where there was no apparent threat to themselves or others, says a new report from Amnesty International.

Many cases of civilian killings by UK armed forces have not even been investigated. Investigations by the Royal Military Police (RMP) have been secretive, with families given little or no information about their progress. Amnesty International is calling for a civilian-led investigation into all killings by UK armed forces, with the findings made public.

"Far from being liberated, the people of Iraq continue to live in fear and insecurity," Amnesty International said.

http://www.amnesty.org/


Numerous killings by UK armed forces and armed groups. One such case is that of eight-year-old Hanan Saleh Matrud, reportedly shot by a soldier from B Company of the First Battalion of the King's Regiment in August 2003. An eyewitness disputes the UK army's claim that she may have been hit accidentally by a warning shot. He told Amnesty International that Hanan was killed when a soldier aimed and fired a shot at her from around 60 metres away.


In January this year Ghanem Kadhem Kati' a 22-year-old unarmed man, was reportedly shot in the back outside his front door while celebrating a family wedding. UK soldiers fired five shots at him from 50 yards away, An RMP investigation is ongoing, but relatives have not been informed about the procedures for claiming compensation.

Families are frequently given no information on how to lodge a compensation claim for the killing of their relatives. In some cases they are given wrong information, including that responsibility for compensation would rest with a new Iraqi government. The Area Claims Officer, to whom claims must be submitted, is situated in an area difficult to access for ordinary civilians (Basra airport) and there is little explanatory information provided on the claims process in English or in Arabic. As a result, people interviewed had little confidence in the compensation system.

[gooddayall]

You're a loony. I'll repeat again, I don't believe our troops would have acted as the Americans did in that video. .

Because in Britain's soldiers come from high-morale , high-education families and go to war on their own will ? And not for some silly reason like having to enlist in the army to "make the ends meet" ? Most of them are probably princes or other royal family. Or perhaps because British soldiers are not trained killers but tourists who happen to be on helicopters as part of tourist tours ? Surely tourists won't just shoot at people ?

[TimberWolf]

Would you put the shooting of 14 civilians in Derry as a mistake? And do not pass that off as history when the report is just about to be published.

That 'mistake' as you call it caused the troubles to escalate and they were queing up to joing the IRA after that.

I believe that the killing of Baha Mousa has been named when further british troops were killed as revenge.

I didn't call that a mistake, you lying twit. It is history, as is the bombing of Dresden. For the nth time I was speaking of the current conflict and circumstances shown in that video, not every conflict in history.

[minestrone]

Link? I'm not saying the British don't make mistakes, I'm referring directly to what occurred in that video, and that just isn't cricket.

Would you put the shooting of 14 civilians in Derry as a mistake? And do not pass that off as history when the report is just about to be published.

That 'mistake' as you call it caused the troubles to escalate and they were queing up to joing the IRA after that.

I believe that the killing of Baha Mousa has been named when further british troops were killed as revenge.

[TimberWolf]

Well the bloke that carried the cup out on the field the other day and is now in doubt of getting his compensation was shot up by a british apache helicopter. What is more gung ho than shooting up your own troops?

Link? I'm not saying the British don't make mistakes, I'm referring directly to what occurred in that video, and that just isn't cricket.

[minestrone]

You're a loony. I'll repeat again, I don't believe our troops would have acted as the Americans did in that video. They aren't as gung-ho. Feel free to rant on as many half baked issues you have with the highly professional British Army if you want though.

Well the bloke that carried the cup out on the field the other day and is now in doubt of getting his compensation was shot up by a british apache helicopter. What is more gung ho than shooting up your own troops?

[TimberWolf]

Well you should have been clearer in you statement, since conscription ended every soldier has been a professional soldier. And as the Saville report findings have been postponed due to the election it is hardly something from history that we all should forget. I simply presented facts based upon you comment and that seems to upset you which is your problem.

Now down the the meat and bones of the argument, if you seriously think that there have not been atrocities committed by British troops currently serving then you are delusional. A fair proportion of people that signed up for the army are thick as mince half wits who got bored of torturing their pets and needed an anger release and the army is societies way of keeping them from doing time for 10 years until they get out.

What is the percentage of people in prison that have an army background?

You're a loony. I'll repeat again, I don't believe our troops would have acted as the Americans did in that video. They aren't as gung-ho. Feel free to rant on as many half baked issues you have with the highly professional British Army if you want though.

[minestrone]

10% of prisoners are military veterans according to NAPO. (Of course, that isn't just army veterans.)

There was a discussion in the STM the other day if it was 9. something or 3. something.

I think they also said that .2% of the population actually serve in the forces so if you take in the 10% figure as fact then they are hardly the cuddly figures the xfactor charity song want you to believe they are.

[NickFitz]

What is the percentage of people in prison that have an army background?

10% of prisoners are military veterans according to NAPO. (Of course, that isn't just army veterans.)

[minestrone]

I'm referring to today's professional British army in today's circumstances, not about a time in history you've a jaded viewpoint to troll about.

Well you should have been clearer in you statement, since conscription ended every soldier has been a professional soldier. And as the Saville report findings have been postponed due to the election it is hardly something from history that we all should forget. I simply presented facts based upon you comment and that seems to upset you which is your problem.

Now down the the meat and bones of the argument, if you seriously think that there have not been atrocities committed by British troops currently serving then you are delusional. A fair proportion of people that signed up for the army are thick as mince half wits who got bored of torturing their pets and needed an anger release and the army is societies way of keeping them from doing time for 10 years until they get out.

What is the percentage of people in prison that have an army background?