Reply to: Lord Ashcroft - what a patriot

[TheFaQQer]

I used the wrong phrase - he's a young Lord to get on the PC.

He was made a life peer in 1996 so 13 years service is not much to get on the PC for somebody who is not a career politician.

Ah, OK. There aren't many current members of the PC who aren't career politicians, apart from the law lords, overseas PMs and the like, and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The shortest time I can find (and I haven't trawled all the PC records) would be Baroness d'Souza who became a peer in 2004 and PC in 2009.

Other similar time frames as Lord Paul exist, though - for example Sir John Wheeler (PC 1993, became a politician in 1979), Baroness Anelay (peerage 1996, PC2009), Lord Bassam (peer 1997, PC 2009)

And I've only got as far as the "D"s.

Edit: The following PCs also had a short time between becoming a peer and a PC:

Baroness Dean (peer 1993, PC 1998), Lord Drayson (peer 2004, PC 2008), Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (peer 1997, PC 2009), Baronness Jay (peer 1992, PC 1998), Baroness Prashar (peer 1999, PC 2009)

To a certain extent, even Lord Hesketh had a "young" political life before becoming a PC. Despite becoming a Lord at the age of 4, he didn't play an active part in politics until 1984, and became a PC in 1991.

Lord Malloch-Brown has the shortest time between being appointed a peer and being made a PC - when he was made a peer in 2007, he became a PC at the same time.

Trying to find members of the PC, who are members of the Lords, who are not career politicians, lawyers, men of the church, royal appointments or civil servants is no easy task - there aren't many of them

[Moscow Mule]

I'm not dredging this up to go down the nom-dom argument again, but I was just struck by your use of the "VERY young" when I was reading something on Wikipedia.

I used the wrong phrase - he's a young Lord to get on the PC.

He was made a life peer in 1996 so 13 years service is not much to get on the PC for somebody who is not a career politician.

He didn't really do anything of note until he was made Deputy Speaker in 2008, which happens to coincide with the the donations made to Brown & the Labour party throughout 2007 & 2008.

[TheFaQQer]

[Lord Paul is] also VERY young for a PCllr.

I'm not dredging this up to go down the nom-dom argument again, but I was just struck by your use of the "VERY young" when I was reading something on Wikipedia.

Lord Paul was born in 1931, making him 38 years older than Yvette Cooper PC, 35 years older than David Cameron PC, 30 years older than William Hague PC, 48 years older than Charles Kennedy PC, 10 years older than Paddy Ashdown PC, 6 years younger than Margaret Thatcher PC, 12 years younger than John Major PC, 27 years younger than Alan Milburn PC....

Thinking about it, I'm not sure that I'd class someone who is nearly 80 as "VERY young", despite higher life expectancy these days.

[minestrone]

Oh look,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8549243.stm

Donations are legal...

Soooo, that must mean his business is genuine.

[Moscow Mule]

Oh look,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8549243.stm

Donations are legal...

[Moscow Mule]

I forgot to mention - your Anything But Cameron stickers, t-shirts etc are available now...

http://www.cafepress.co.uk/AnythingButCam

[ratewhore]

The whole thing tells me he has the same attitude to tax planning as the rest of us.

Non story.

[DodgyAgent]

Partly my point was based on a claim Dodgy made that the Tories were proud to British (as if members and supporters of other parties aren't), but to answer your question directly, I believe it's important to demonstrate your committment by living here - otherwise it's lip service - which isn't to totally discount it, but does significantly discount its value imho.

In which case you have a perfectly valid point

[TheFaQQer]

Ahh, so it comes down to the court of public opinion. Glad we got that cleared up.

Well, of course it does.

Same as it did with Hazel Blears, Lord Hanningfield, George Osbourne, Kitty Ussher, Douglas Hogg, Sir Michael Spicer, David Davis, David Heathcoat-Amory, The Marquis of Lothian, et al.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I know a lot of expatriates who live abroad cokmpletely who are very patriotic and proud of being British. I also know of a number of Australians, Indians and New Zealanders who live abroad full time who are still proud of their nationalities. So what is your point?

Partly my point was based on a claim Dodgy made that the Tories were proud to British (as if members and supporters of other parties aren't), but to answer your question directly, I believe it's important to demonstrate your committment by living here - otherwise it's lip service - which isn't to totally discount it, but does significantly discount its value imho.

[TheFaQQer]

Then your memory is at fault. In order for a company to be eligible to make donations to a political party it has to be registered in the UK and carry out business here. Failure to do so would be a breach of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act.

To be precise:

Under Section 54 of PPERA, eligible donors or lenders are:

* an individual registered in a UK electoral register (including bequests)
* a UK registered company which is incorporated within the European Union and carries on business in the UK
* a UK registered political party
* a UK registered trade union
* a UK registered building society
* a UK registered limited liability partnership that carries on business in the UK
* a UK registered friendly society
* a UK based unincorporated association that carries on business or other activities in the UK
* certain kinds of UK-based trusts

When a party receives a donation, it has 30 days to decide whether the donor/lender is permissible.

If a party finds the donor is impermissible, it can return the money to the donor if within 30 days from the day the donation was received.

If a party accepts a donation which is later found by us to be from an impermissible source, the money will have to be forfeited and paid into the Consolidated Fund.

Source: Electoral Commission

Ashcroft can't make donations as an individual, as he is not on the electoral roll. So, the question is whether his company (over £5m in donations since 2003) really does carry on business in the UK.

[minestrone]

Ashcroft has not done anything illegal, but in the eyes of many, not paying £300 million in tax when you are moaning that the country needs to make massive public sector cuts smacks of hypocrisy.

Ahh, so it comes down to the court of public opinion. Glad we got that cleared up.

[TheFaQQer]

Yup, I don't seem to remember the electoral commission being given the right to mark a company as "genuine" or not

Then your memory is at fault. In order for a company to be eligible to make donations to a political party it has to be registered in the UK and carry out business here. Failure to do so would be a breach of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act.

and when they have not found anything wrong I do not see why his company can be said to be not genuine.

The investigation is ongoing - the company status is "unclear". One key question for the EC is going to be what happens if they don't rule on the legitimacy of the donations until after the election and they are then found to have been illegal.

As far as I am concerned he is a British citizen with the right to vote and travels under a British passport, his tax status is neither here nor there.

Good for you. I personally believe that if you are making the laws of the land, you should pay UK taxes on your income and be domiciled in this country. So does David Cameron (now) and Lord Ashcroft (in the future).

I also believe that to be a member of parliament (either house) you should be on the electoral roll in this country.

Ashcroft has not done anything illegal, but in the eyes of many, not paying £300 million in tax when you are moaning that the country needs to make massive public sector cuts smacks of hypocrisy.

[DodgyAgent]

So proud to be British he isn't even domiciled here.

I know a lot of expatriates who live abroad cokmpletely who are very patriotic and proud of being British. I also know of a number of Australians, Indians and New Zealanders who live abroad full time who are still proud of their nationalities. So what is your point?

[Mich the Tester]

Yup, I don't seem to remember the electoral commission being given the right to mark a company as "genuine" or not and when they have not found anything wrong I do not see why his company can be said to be not genuine.

As far as I am concerned he is a British citizen with the right to vote and travels under a British passport, his tax status is neither here nor there.

It shows how buggered the Labour party are when this is the best punch they have.

I told you AtW would help you with your earlier question didn't I?