Reply to: Tax

[Julius Caesar]

You must be very young.

It was deemed very acceptable to take even more back in the 70s.

That's what I meant when I said that 50% seems like a psychological barrier now. It was not always so.

[Julius Caesar]

Now if I saw that the money I give to the government was succeeding in reducing poverty and helping people to fend for themselves, I wouldn’t be so bothered. But I don’t; I see the same people getting the money year after year until their kids then get the welfare money, and their kids, and their kids, and so on. So money is taken from me, not to break the cycle of poverty, but to subsidize poverty

That I agree with. I think I'd be happy to be Swedish, because it works. I too resent paying what is a lot of money no matter what the %age, only to see it squandered, when it could be used to do great good.

And I do think that politicians have just become used to having mind-boggling sums of money to waste, and their only thought it to get hold of more. In that sense the kleptocracy is long since installed (and IMHO didn't go away in the 1980s either).

[Gibbon]

Yeah, council tax is mainly used to fill the index linked wage packets of the council elites. Councils afraid to say how much they pay chiefs

Great isn't it, I pay 1.5 K in Council Tax and my Wife gets 70K back for doing almost nothing (sometimes she does the sandwich run to Harvey Nichs).

[AtW]

Or having to pay 75% if you live alone as the family of 5 next door.

This makes me

[TimberWolf]

I also see that a huge amount of money gets stuck in the system, not financing genuine solidarity with people who are less fortunate than me, but financing the administration of huge government agencies employing people who, well meaning or not, basically make a living from the subsidized misery of some and the involuntary contribution of others. That’s where I see the theft.

Yeah, council tax is mainly used to fill the index linked wage packets of the council elites. Councils afraid to say how much they pay chiefs

[Mich the Tester]

Do you believe that there is a point at which the rate becomes such as to alter the type of action that the tax constitutes, or the type of government that is doing it?

I don’t know. That’s why I ask the question; to find out the opinions of the congregation. I think there is an issue here though. Each year I give a large amount of money to the tax man. Some of this is spent on stuff that is obviously necessary, like transport infrastructure, education, defence, security, the law and so on.

A lot is spent on ‘solidarity’ with ‘the poor’; the tax rates are a means of redistributing income. Now then, I’m all in favour of helping poor people to get out of their rut and improve life for themselves. Now if I saw that the money I give to the government was succeeding in reducing poverty and helping people to fend for themselves, I wouldn’t be so bothered. But I don’t; I see the same people getting the money year after year until their kids then get the welfare money, and their kids, and their kids, and so on. So money is taken from me, not to break the cycle of poverty, but to subsidize poverty and to provide second rate hay and a run down barn for human cattle. I also see that a huge amount of money gets stuck in the system, not financing genuine solidarity with people who are less fortunate than me, but financing the administration of huge government agencies employing people who, well meaning or not, basically make a living from the subsidized misery of some and the involuntary contribution of others. That’s where I see the theft.

[Julius Caesar]

In Holland we have a top rate of tax at 52% for people earning more than 54,000 euros. That’s a lot of people, very few of whom actually pay it, because there is still mortgage interest tax relief. Also, many people bring their taxable income down by working partly or wholly from their own business. Others who don’t have these options open maximize non-taxable income by giving untaxed gifts to their kids. Those without kids and no other options to lower their tax burden just start working less hours. Holland has a huge part time workforce; many people actually choose to accept a bit less income in return for more free time because if you have a good hourly rate or wage there’s just no point in working beyond about 32 hours per week. The labour party here have suggested raising the top rate of tax to 60%; the labour minister of finance, who is luckily a bit less mad than his party members has said he won’t do that because it would damage the economy and wouldn’t raise any money.

That's very interesting but IMHO it has nothing to do with the original question.

[BolshieBastard]

While tax rate is an issue, I think the bigger issue is that people be allowed to minimise the rate of tax they pay.

Unfortunately, HMRC are moving away from this and instead starting to follow what one judge described as paying 'one's fair share' irrespective of legislation to determine how much tax you pay.

[Julius Caesar]

Or having to pay 75% if you live alone as the family of 5 next door.

Wasn't there a British Prime Minister who came up with a much fairer system of paying for local council services? What was her name?

If it's a fee for the services, then a flat fee might be fair.

If it's a tax, then a progressive income tax is much fairer.

If you can't tell the difference between a fee and a tax ....

[Julius Caesar]

The point at which most people think it is kleptocracy, is when their earning are taxed at 50%.

There is at the moment a curious psychological boundary at 50%, but there is nothing particularly special about that, once you have accepted the principle of income tax in the first place.

[Mich the Tester]

The history of Taxation makes a very interesting read (now there's a phrase I never thought I'd say).

Today, we are paying the price for the goverment's and banks' blunders, and soon 50% taxation might in fact seem to have been a good deal. I can imagine a UK where we pay 70% taxation, and still get very little in return.

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/18022010/325...arply-jan.html

In Holland we have a top rate of tax at 52% for people earning more than 54,000 euros. That’s a lot of people, very few of whom actually pay it, because there is still mortgage interest tax relief. Also, many people bring their taxable income down by working partly or wholly from their own business. Others who don’t have these options open maximize non-taxable income by giving untaxed gifts to their kids. Those without kids and no other options to lower their tax burden just start working less hours. Holland has a huge part time workforce; many people actually choose to accept a bit less income in return for more free time because if you have a good hourly rate or wage there’s just no point in working beyond about 32 hours per week. The labour party here have suggested raising the top rate of tax to 60%; the labour minister of finance, who is luckily a bit less mad than his party members has said he won’t do that because it would damage the economy and wouldn’t raise any money.

[VectraMan]

Kleptocracy is having to pay full and incredibly high council tax when you've got no income

Or having to pay 75% if you live alone as the family of 5 next door.

Wasn't there a British Prime Minister who came up with a much fairer system of paying for local council services? What was her name?

[cojak]

I can imagine a UK where we pay 70% taxation, and still get very little in return.

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/18022010/325...arply-jan.html

It's been done before...

[Julius Caesar]

How have we reached a situation where a majority find it justifiable to take, by force, more than 40%, and indeed in some cases more than 50% of other people’s incomes?

At what level is tax no longer an instrument of a democracy but an instrument of a kleptocracy?

I do not see a a complete difference between democracy and anything else in the question of whether the tax rate is 30%, 40%, 50%, or 60%. They are just different tax rates, some more taxing than others. It's like the old tale of the philosophy professor (or Churchill or GBS or whoever) asking the woman if she would sleep with him for a million pounds, and being told, Yes.
- Would you do it for one pound?
- What kind of woman do you think I am?
- We've already established that, I'm just trying to fix the price.

Well, we've more or less let the income tax become acceptable. In that case, we are just trying to fix the price.

Do you believe that there is a point at which the rate becomes such as to alter the type of action that the tax constitutes, or the type of government that is doing it?

[TimberWolf]

Kleptocracy is having to pay full and incredibly high council tax when you've got no income