Reply to: Has anyone else noticed this ?

[Mich the Tester]

I used to have thoughts like that, but then my brain melted.

What would be really cool is if our universe is entirely contained within an atom of another universe - in a sort of uber-fractal kind of way.

That would make Benoit Mandelbrot a prophet!

Fall to your knees and worship the uber-geek!

[Moscow Mule]

snip

I used to have thoughts like that, but then my brain melted.

What would be really cool is if our universe is entirely contained within an atom of another universe - in a sort of uber-fractal kind of way.

[ratewhore]

These things aren't worth debating until you've had a skinful...

[shaunbhoy]

I find evolution less improbable than the spontaneous arrival of an omnipotent, omniscient being capable of making universes, designing and guiding evolutionary processes and judging the actions of every human on a planet somewhere in the backwaters of a relatively unspectacular galaxy, which is only one of millions and billions...etc

What I mean is this; for the big bang to happen you would need a particle of enormous density somewhere in a void. That particle then explodes and leads on to atoms, rocks, gravity, proteins and eventually people, cats and delayed trains. Improbable perhaps, but science has shown quite elegantly how complexity can arise from simplicity (although has failed to do so among some families in East Anglia or the Dutch countryside). Still leaves the question of where the particle came from, and perhaps that question will never be answered; that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to answer it, seeing as we've come a long way in the past few thousand years.

Now then, religious people usually posit that God did all this. But that would make God an incredibly complex being, in fact even more complex than the universe itself, and supposedly he was here BEFORE the universe. I'd be fascinated to know where he came from.

So if the existence of the universe and the process of evolution are improbable, then isn't existence of god before the universe even more improbable?

If God arrived at the same time as the universe, and was created during the big bang, then he's not really the creator, but is another being who is part of the same universe as us and subject to the same physical laws as the rest of us, and thus neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

If God arrived after the universe was formed, then he was surely unnecessary, because a natural process that's capable of producing an omnipotent, omniscient being is surely capable of producing planets, water, oxygen, proteins and life without any outside help.

An UNBELIEVER!!!!!!!!!!!! Stone Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He's only making it worse for himself!!!!!!!!!!

[Mich the Tester]

I'm a scientist as well as a Christian, and the thing that gets me with pure blind evolution is the sheer improbability.

I find evolution less improbable than the spontaneous arrival of an omnipotent, omniscient being capable of making universes, designing and guiding evolutionary processes and judging the actions of every human on a planet somewhere in the backwaters of a relatively unspectacular galaxy, which is only one of millions and billions...etc

What I mean is this; for the big bang to happen you would need a particle of enormous density somewhere in a void. That particle then explodes and leads on to atoms, rocks, gravity, proteins and eventually people, cats and delayed trains. Improbable perhaps, but science has shown quite elegantly how complexity can arise from simplicity (although has failed to do so among some families in East Anglia or the Dutch countryside). Still leaves the question of where the particle came from, and perhaps that question will never be answered; that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to answer it, seeing as we've come a long way in the past few thousand years.

Now then, religious people usually posit that God did all this. But that would make God an incredibly complex being, in fact even more complex than the universe itself, and supposedly he was here BEFORE the universe. I'd be fascinated to know where he came from.

So if the existence of the universe and the process of evolution are improbable, then isn't existence of god before the universe even more improbable?

If God arrived at the same time as the universe, and was created during the big bang, then he's not really the creator, but is another being who is part of the same universe as us and subject to the same physical laws as the rest of us, and thus neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

If God arrived after the universe was formed, then he was surely unnecessary, because a natural process that's capable of producing an omnipotent, omniscient being is surely capable of producing planets, water, oxygen, proteins and life without any outside help.

[cailin maith]

I still see a few (well, I am in Ireland, the land of the gullible). I have a Darwin fish on the back of mine to wind them up

Piss off

[shaunbhoy]

The local milkman has one on his float

Well you know what they say...........Blessed are the Cheesemakers!!

[EternalOptimist]

What makes the Christian ‘God’ more believable to modern believers than Wotan, Thor or Ra?

Interesting question is this. I never had the slightest inclination to believe in anything supernatural, so studying religion is like studying chemistry to me, if that makes any sense to the believers out there. At the same time, I can see the great passion it arouses, so I accept there must be something real there, to the believers

[Moscow Mule]

What makes the Christian ‘God’ more believable to modern believers than Wotan, Thor or Ra?

Indoctrination.

[Mich the Tester]

What makes the Christian ‘God’ more believable to modern believers than Wotan, Thor or Ra?

[meridian]

Can you explain that one? We're all atheists but some of us believe in god(s)? I'm aware of the argument that Atheism is as much a faith as 'proper' religions but not the other way round.

What I meant was, to a Hindu you're an 'athiest' in the sense that you don't believe in any/all of their gods.

To use another quote, when you understand why you don't believe in someone else's god(s), you'll understand why I don't believe in yours.

[meridian]

I can't think how one can disprove evolution. It's not a mathematical formula someone can disprove. Scientifically, isn't that a weakness?

Not at all - as one small example, evolutionarily there were no mammals pre-dinosaur era. If just one mammal fossil were found in the Devonian geological layer then that would force scientists to rethink their entire outlook on the history of evolution. So far one hasn't....

I'm a scientist as well as a Christian, and the thing that gets me with pure blind evolution is the sheer improbability. It's like saying that miracles in the bible could be due to being made up stories...

FTFY

Theologically most gods were capable of extreme feats, even sons of gods such as Hercules. Doesn't mean those feats happened, or that if they did they haven't been embellished a lot, or even that David Copperfield lived amongst them. I still can't figure out how he levitates, doesn't make him a miracle-worker.

[cojak]

......, and the thing that gets me with pure blind evolution is the sheer improbability.

Snap! That's exactly what I think about Religion.

[Board Game Geek]

what if we found life on another planet?

I've pondered that too.

Assuming that they are sentient and able to communicate, it would be interesting to see if they have a belief system, and if so, would it fundamentally be the same as ours ?

I asked a friend who is religious and said "Suppose they don't have a God or such. Never heard of the fellow. What then ?"

He replied :

"It goes to prove that God favoured Man, and we are truly blessed. Whilst the aliens are His creation too, the fact that they do not believe, means that they need to be saved and we need to convince them."

You see, the religious types have an answer for everything.

[EternalOptimist]

Using a time machine?

No, if got made the earth in seven days and sent his son to earth to cleanse us of sins, etc
its all earth orientated isnt it.

So would it shake your faith if life was found elsewhere. after all , they never had sin, they never had jesus.