Reply to: Some Contracting questions

[northernladuk]

The clocking in is basically a must in order to gain access to the building because all the doors are security access, maybe this is more for watching permies but all I have to do is swipe my pass but it does keep a record.

That isn't clocking in man! Thats standard security practice for most decent sized companies. Clocking in... which decade are you from?

There is nothing to say I am getting paid for travelling but nothing to say Im not either. I just take some of that out of my typical working day, if Im busy and need to work later then I do. I consider that reasonable.

You might consider it reasonable, you might want to clarify that with the guy paying your bill. I am feeling your not the most customer focussed person. Possibly not too much of a problem if you want to argue contactual obligations all the time but would be worth keeping him happy sometimes.

I was only wondering what peoples opinions are regarding timekeeping and this being an issue in relation to being outside of IR35 and whether or not I can assume that two hours travelling is part of my typical working day.

You cannot assume this at all. You are contracted to do a piece of work. What happens past the work gates is your problem. Generally you knew where the work was and it is up to you to make sure you can get there to do it. If you can agree with the customer to give you 2 hours for sod all (everyone else has some level of communte) then way to go. Keep you head down and keep schtum imo.

[TheFaQQer]

You notice they were not in General, you can ask questions in General but don't always expect to get a serious answere.

Specifically in general?

[alreadypacked]

Eventually found these previous posts;

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...y-hours-3.html

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...y-rates-2.html

which are quite helpful.

You notice they were not in General, you can ask questions in General but don't always expect to get a serious answere.

[alreadypacked]

useful input, thanks.

We usually have a party on a newbie's first thread, but the last few newbie never came back.

[kermitt]

Eventually found these previous posts;

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...y-hours-3.html

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...y-rates-2.html

which are quite helpful.

[MPwannadecentincome]

Just adhereing to site policies to keep them happy isn't going to put you out of IR35. Your just fitting in to keep everyone happy. As long as your contract doesn't mention it and the cusomter doesn't implicitly tell you you have to do 9 to 5 then just be a good little boy and keep him sweet.

Isn't this a bit of a grey area, I thought IR35 cases are being lost where the contract does not mirror the true working practises, and intentions, of those involved.

whether or not I can assume that two hours travelling is part of my typical working day.

you are on a cushy number as already pointed out on this one- count yourself lucky

[kermitt]

useful input, thanks.

[alreadypacked]

So there wasn't really a question, you just like writing abouut yourself

I think the least he can do is to take the padlock off the drinks cabinet

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Woah people am not pissing anybody off and am not swanning around like some of you point out, nor do I have any reputation for the like. The only reason I ask is that the base manager at my place of work pointed out that my clock in times are irregular, thats all. But I dont work for him I report to someone else who is miles away.

As far as I am aware the system is for fire safety so they have a record of who is in the building, the permies however do have an actual timesheet that they must fulfill. However the base manager mentioned that this log is looked at against the hours that the contractors are billing the client. It is only myself and one other in the whole office that report to the client in England because we are part of his group, everyone else at my place of work reports to the base manager here. We generally work on separate things anyway so there is no team really.

Generally I turn up later on a Monday morning due to the travelling time I incur, I would rather get a restful nights sleep and be proactive at my work than be half asleep and do sod all. Plus I generally do make up some of the time by staying on later and/or take very little lunch break.

The rest of the week I am mostly there on time in the morning if I am late then I again work later, mostly but not always. Typically I do the return journey home on a Friday afternoon instead of taking lunch and then continue working or ensure I am available answering emails, phone calls etc.

Thing is though I am not always busy and my routine changes weekly. Sometimes I am over loaded and work much later than normal, other times there is very little to do and I see no point hanging around just to fill in the clock.

Some Mondays I get up and sort emails out etc and then travel at lunch time, however the clocking in system does not recognise the fact that I may have already spent four hours working that morning off site. I only ever really need to be in the office if I need to use their equipment/software but if I am reviewing documents or writing specifications I can do this anywhere really.

Essentially I am getting my work done and have had no complaints from my client. Contract is from the agency who got me the position.

So there wasn't really a question, you just like writing about yourself

[kermitt]

Thanks, wasnt really challenged about it just asksed if I had some kind of agreement with the other guy to whom I report to as to working times because I am not always in the office for full days all week.

The clocking in is basically a must in order to gain access to the building because all the doors are security access, maybe this is more for watching permies but all I have to do is swipe my pass but it does keep a record.

There is nothing to say I am getting paid for travelling but nothing to say Im not either. I just take some of that out of my typical working day, if Im busy and need to work later then I do. I consider that reasonable.

There isnt really a problem as you say just perhaps a lack of understanding between the base manager at the place of work and what agreement I have with who I report to down south. All he mentioned was that the hours recorded of me being in the buidling were irregular thats all, however this does not account for me working at home, travelling or taking lunch/not taking lunch.

All the other contracters/staff are local and seem to have regular patterns of work and they all report to the base manager so he will consider their activity as normal, however because I have a different routine it wont look the same although it is nothing to do with this guy anyway because he does not approve my invoices.

I was only wondering what peoples opinions are regarding timekeeping and this being an issue in relation to being outside of IR35 and whether or not I can assume that two hours travelling is part of my typical working day.

Cheers.

[singhr]

It's a bit of a treak but anywhere for a party, let's have an Irish coffee to warm up.

I don't have any Baileys, will Irish Mist do?

[northernladuk]

Ah ok thats a bit clearer. Still for someone to actually take you to task about your time must mean its more than just a slight issue what with the UK culture to avoid direct confrontation. No smoke without fire so would watch it.

Thing is though I am not always busy and my routine changes weekly. Sometimes I am over loaded and work much later than normal, other times there is very little to do and I see no point hanging around just to fill in the clock.

your getting paid by the clock so as little point as there is hanging around it is your master. Most of us wouldn't be sitting in the office now if this was true. Unfortuantely in most cases the right thing to do is to fill the clock and be seen to be leaving at reasonable times etc.

Every situation is different, the work you do, client attitude etc etc. I have never seen a place that makes you 'clock in' to a building so find this odd.

Little things niggle me as i read through though. You put...

Generally I turn up later on a Monday morning due to the travelling time I incur, I would rather get a restful nights sleep and be proactive at my work than be half asleep and do sod all. Plus I generally do make up some of the time by staying on later and/or take very little lunch break.

If you are paid to travel 2 hours then whatever you do you start at 8. Set of travelling at 8 get there at 10 do 2 more hours work. If you work at home you start at 8 do 2 hours work and travel for 2. How does this affect the time you get up and how tired you feel? You would only feel that if you stayed in bed till 10 and then travelled as apposed to being ready at 8. You get me?

At the end of the day if the client is happy and agent is happy so where is the problem? Sounds like you already have a cushy number with the travel being paid for and a bit of leniency with time. Unless you are desperate why rock the boat?

[kermitt]

Woah people am not pissing anybody off and am not swanning around like some of you point out, nor do I have any reputation for the like. The only reason I ask is that the base manager at my place of work pointed out that my clock in times are irregular, thats all. But I dont work for him I report to someone else who is miles away.

As far as I am aware the system is for fire safety so they have a record of who is in the building, the permies however do have an actual timesheet that they must fulfill. However the base manager mentioned that this log is looked at against the hours that the contractors are billing the client. It is only myself and one other in the whole office that report to the client in England because we are part of his group, everyone else at my place of work reports to the base manager here. We generally work on separate things anyway so there is no team really.

Generally I turn up later on a Monday morning due to the travelling time I incur, I would rather get a restful nights sleep and be proactive at my work than be half asleep and do sod all. Plus I generally do make up some of the time by staying on later and/or take very little lunch break.

The rest of the week I am mostly there on time in the morning if I am late then I again work later, mostly but not always. Typically I do the return journey home on a Friday afternoon instead of taking lunch and then continue working or ensure I am available answering emails, phone calls etc.

Thing is though I am not always busy and my routine changes weekly. Sometimes I am over loaded and work much later than normal, other times there is very little to do and I see no point hanging around just to fill in the clock.

Some Mondays I get up and sort emails out etc and then travel at lunch time, however the clocking in system does not recognise the fact that I may have already spent four hours working that morning off site. I only ever really need to be in the office if I need to use their equipment/software but if I am reviewing documents or writing specifications I can do this anywhere really.

Essentially I am getting my work done and have had no complaints from my client. Contract is from the agency who got me the position.

[alreadypacked]

I have nearly completed my first 12 month contract. I live in Scotland.

It's a bit of a treak but anywhere for a party, let's have an Irish coffee to warm up.

[northernladuk]

Again my take on this would be keep the customer/client happy. It would appear to me you are just trying to get yourself a cushy number and be able to swan in and out as you see fit and that the customer/client is already not very happy about this.

Is it really so important to you that you want to put your renewal in jeoaprdy?

I could read both sides of the argument in to your contract. Yes you have autonomoy as to how it is delivered but it does also say you will comply in all reasonable and lawful requests.

Coming in between certain hours so as not to cause consternation in the office doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Telling him where you are every day and him having a say on that so he can reasonable govern your time would also seem reasonable as he is paying for it.

Again, playing devils advocate as the client, the fact you seem to have a reputation for swanning in and out as you wish and then are attempting to force the client to write that in to your contract is going to make you the focus for some thought. I personally would be going through your work with a fine toothed comb to make sure you are not wagging it so you better be ready to account for every second of time you are being paid for.

Is it really so important to you that you flaunt around like this and risk pissing him off? Contracts aside he is a human being in an office with a lot of other human beings. they can get pissed off and turn against you whatever your contract actually says.

Where did you get this contract from that says you are not an employee anyway? Did you create it? Sounds a bit odd.