Reply to: Paying the double agency wammy

[DodgyAgent]

Or ethics.

Bit like Gary Glitter in fact.....

I think you will find that the ethics of gary glitter are more closely followed by IT contractors mcq, so I wouldnt go there if I were you.

[mcquiggd]

Or ethics.

Bit like Gary Glitter in fact.....

[DodgyAgent]

Dodgy, how is the Bentley Turbo going? - I assume you have traded in the three wheeler yellow van?

Mondeo man me Ancient. I am (obviously) not into cars

[ancient]

Dodgy, how is the Bentley Turbo going? - I assume you have traded in the three wheeler yellow van?

[ancient]

Pandora's Box? - Contractor, Agent and Client.

You raise some good issues here.

Many contractor rates are commodity based - e.g. Have no relationship to skills, experience, education, commitment, qualifications, length of commute etc.

If it costs the Contractor £150 per day expenses being away four nights a week, versus the guy who lives round the corner - nobody cares.

The Guy who is travelling may well have wider experience and more qualifications.

But who cares the rate for the job is x the agency rate is y; your expenses are z; take it or leave it.

Treat Contractors like mushrooms, and feed them tulip. Ask them to work 80 hours a week and keep them under threat.

Meanwhile the Customer decides to hire in a few "Consultants" from a reputable firm e.g. IBM (probably sub-contractors on £500 per day), who charge £1500-2000 a day to the Client + Expenses. Great Stuff, IBM are happy, and the Manager is happy because he can hide behind the IBM reputation.

That is the nature of the beast.

Wether you are any good or not; how hard you work, or your commitment to the Customer probably bears little relationship to your chargeable rate.

[Not So Wise]

On a similar vein I can't see why contractors amongst themselves shouldn't also discuss what rate/margin etc they're on, through which agency etc. Something which unfortunately some contractors seem think should to be some big secret, but again just plays into the hands of agents.

Why? Because to many people are idiots.

Not because they won't discuss it but because when they do it always cause's aggro

Typical senario:

Contractor a) Yeah i am on £500 per day
Contractor b) OMG i am only on £400 per day. No way am i standing for this

*"B" Goes to client*
I just heard "A" is on £500 per day, i demand a raise to be put on the same as him (Totally ignoring things like "A" has more skills/more experence or is just plain better at negociating than "B")

Client is now very pissed at "A" and can probably kiss goodbye his chances of getting at raise next renewal because "B" just used up remainder of the budget with his demands

I learned years ago the hard way, never discuss rates with contractors (or permies) you work with.

[DodgyAgent]

...and from an agent no less.

On a similar vein I can't see why contractors amongst themselves shouldn't also discuss what rate/margin etc they're on, through which agency etc. Something which unfortunately some contractors seem think should to be some big secret, but again just plays into the hands of agents.

Information is power and as long as its the case that the agent is the one holding all the cards then contractors will always be at risk of some dodgy agent just giving them the 'market rate'.

It is free world Joe. The danger ontractors discussing rates with each other is that it is dangerous. Different contractors are on different money, some are better than others and some have to commute further than others. In other words each contractor is there for different reasons and represents different values to the client and for themselves.

The danger for the client and the contractor is that if all contractors find out their rates then they may try to collectively bargain for all to receive the same rate as the highest contractor. This is not a healthy situation for the client and the contractor to be in (unless of course the contractor is prepared to "just live with it".)

But it is difficult for contractors and clients alike as in some cases a contractor may just be getting as you say "ripped off". But just as this is true so is the converse true. Why on the other should not the client pay whatever the lowest paid contractor is being paid?

"Market rate" is very hard to define as it is a constant moving target. Contractors may be prepared to earn less if the contract is long term, close to home giving good new experience or they are stalking one of the girls in accounts.

there is no answer. You simply have to judge how to use the information

[Joe Black]

If I were a contractor I would want to know margins, not as of some sort of "right" but to know:

a. How expensive to the client I am (for reasons made earlier by one of you), and
b. To help my negotiating position.

...and from an agent no less.

Personally I don't have a problem with an agent charging a reasonable commission, but as DA points out above I think it should be every contractors aim to find out exactly what that is. Not simply because it might enable you to increase your rate at renewal, but also because if its too high then it might even determine whether the client keeps you on or not, or even gets rid of you before then.

On a similar vein I can't see why contractors amongst themselves shouldn't also discuss what rate/margin etc they're on, through which agency etc. Something which unfortunately some contractors seem think should to be some big secret, but again just plays into the hands of agents.

Information is power and as long as its the case that the agent is the one holding all the cards then contractors will always be at risk of some dodgy agent just giving them the 'market rate'.

[mcquiggd]

If that's how you feel, go and find your own contracts and don't use an agency. Simple really - if you don't like it don't do it.

I certainly have done whenever possible - both fixed price and standard daily rate.

But when large local clients refuse to take you direct and will only deal with someone like Alexander Mann who have sewn up a monopoly as a nice little earner, or have a strict PSL, and you need to pay the rent and bills, then you have to 'dance with the devil'.

At least im with MSB now who seem to be ok... will be getting the Biztalk experience I wanted as well.

Hopefully another year ir two and ill be in a different line of business anyway. Like a lot of contractors I know this isnt seen as a long term career for all my working life, and most have a Plan B they are working on.

[Reccon]

my pimp take 16.x % from me each invoice - now I feal it is high - but he has to take somthing I guess.....on my next renewal I will be pushing for more money - or I will walk.....

Still not quite getting it are we!!

[XLMonkey]

What I take issue with is the arrogant idiots who presume that they are paying the agency and presume that the agency does nothing for its margin, as if they have some sort moral authority to make such judgements. Business is not some platform for a battle of what is ethical (mostly subjective), moral or whatever; that is what governments are (supposedly) there to decide.

Go get 'em tiger! Vote DA!

Have never seen a thread about agents that didn't end in them being accused of pimping, despite that fact that contractors keep on stealing 85% of their income.

Poor dears. It just makes me soooo angry

[privateeye]

Has anyone had any dealings with Abraxus? Problems with payment etc. This thread has got me paranoid about getting paid now.....

No probs they paid on time etc

[DaveB]

Has anyone had any dealings with Abraxus? Problems with payment etc. This thread has got me paranoid about getting paid now.....

[ratewhore]

You will also find that if they are late with paying you then they will have a complaints procedure, you should not only complain but record your complaint.

Thats all dealt with. Fully paid invoices plus penalties and interest...

[John Galt]

No Dodgy, we earn a living - the agency takes a cut of our living.

If that's how you feel, go and find your own contracts and don't use an agency. Simple really - if you don't like it don't do it.