ICT abuse by Bob Shawadiwadi on R5 Live

[The Lone Gunman]

isn't this just how Brit ex-pats operate and are percieved overseas as they hoover up the cash in far flung places? clearly what is sauce for the goose.........

I have been contracting on the mainland since 1998 and not once have I been the cheap alternative. I have been told I am the most expensive contractor on site at the moment (not the first time).

The problem in the UK is being driven by the same companies that started the rush to contracting in the first place.
The big firms are constantly looking for ways to reduce their wages bill and their legal commitments to their employees.
The favored method at the moment is to start a headlease company abroad, use that company to bid for a UK contract then ICT the staff in.
The big players got rid of their permie staff years ago, some of them forced their workforce to go contract (which was a win win at the time). As the ICT legislation only stops them from replaceing PERMANENT staff they are at liberty to eject all their contractors.
No employees = no commitment to: Sick pay, holiday pay, pensions or redundancy.

[wurzel]

isn't this just how Brit ex-pats operate and are percieved overseas as they hoover up the cash in far flung places? clearly what is sauce for the goose.........

I'm sure that might be true up to a point but in my own case I spent a few years in Saudi and Dubai back in the nineties & it was definitely not the case there. Over there I was plugging a skills gap as there just weren't the local resources available & never once felt I was stealing somebody's job.

[NotAllThere]

I listened to the article and found myself siding with the contractors who couldn't find work because they were always being undercut or the work was being scooped up by teams from indian consultancies not playing ball with our law. I got to thinking about the many indians on my project who seem light on experience, dodge questions about their skillset, live in crowded house shares, never have any money to spend, speak in mother tongue and lunch in packs, rarely mingling, ...until the lightbulb went on in my head - isn't this just how Brit ex-pats operate and are percieved overseas as they hoover up the cash in far flung places? clearly what is sauce for the goose.........

No. It isn't how we operate or are perceived. We operate within the law, live in big apartments/houses and spend lots of money. We may or may not mingle with the locals. We do not undercut the local rates. Most of the expats I know have loads of experience, and a proven skillset.

What's sauce for the goose, isn't sauce for the sparrow.

[NotAllThere]

I listened to the article and found myself siding with the contractors who couldn't find work because they were always being undercut or the work was being scooped up by teams from indian consultancies not playing ball with our law. I got to thinking about the many indians on my project who seem light on experience, dodge questions about their skillset, live in crowded house shares, never have any money to spend, speak in mother tongue and lunch in packs, rarely mingling, ...until the lightbulb went on in my head - isn't this just how Brit ex-pats operate and are percieved overseas as they hoover up the cash in far flung places? clearly what is sauce for the goose.........

No. It isn't how we operate. We operate within the law, live in big apartments/houses and spend lots of money. We may or may not mingle with the locals. We do not undercut the local rates.

[singhr]

I listened to the article and found myself siding with the contractors who couldn't find work because they were always being undercut or the work was being scooped up by teams from indian consultancies not playing ball with our law. I got to thinking about the many indians on my project who seem light on experience, dodge questions about their skillset, live in crowded house shares, never have any money to spend, speak in mother tongue and lunch in packs, rarely mingling, feeling more and more agrieved about how globalisation has dealt us contractors a dud hand until the lightbulb went on in my head - isn't this just how Brit ex-pats operate and are percieved overseas as they hoover up the cash in far flung places? clearly what is sauce for the goose.........

[AtW]

If not, these people would have to have a plan B in mind for when they reach 40 or are outsourced. No career should end like that. Especially in IT which requires such a high mental investment - more than in any field IMO - to want to have it come to nought.

It is a valid arguement - IT job requires abilities that might be used up by the time person is 40, there are precedents - Air Traffic Controllers who I believe can retire early, even though they are doing dangerous job. Problem is that simple things in IT can now be done by young guys or cowboys who have no idea of pension, family etc etc etc so they'd price themselves very low and this makes it hard for real competent people to charge what they are worth.

Anyway, what's your opinion on the UK economy? You appear to have said little about it. Who's going to lose the most over the next few years :- savers, house owners, shareholders, pensioners, debtors,...? And where is your cash stashed? You thinking of buying a house soon?

I don't have much cash left - I've put everything into shares of SKA Ltd, while I think it will do well, I feel that this country made fatal mistake some decades ago when it chosen path that destroyed its industry. Nu Liebor sure made things worse with getting this country into debt.

House prices are still too high in my view, I don't have the money to buy one anyway at the moment as I've put all my resources into SKA. Would do it again.

[TimberWolf]

I think people should not come into any field only because they think it is a viable career.

If not, these people would have to have a plan B in mind for when they reach 40 or are outsourced. No career should end like that. Especially in IT which requires such a high mental investment - more than in any field IMO - to want to have it come to nought.

Anyway, what's your opinion on the UK economy? You appear to have said little about it. Who's going to lose the most over the next few years :- savers, house owners, shareholders, pensioners, debtors,...? And where is your cash stashed? You thinking of buying a house soon?

[AtW]

New people won't come into IT if they don't see it as a viable career.

I think people should not come into any field only because they think it is a viable career. I did not do IT because I thought it will make me most money - I just liked that despite my business education and kept doing it, this meant I'd do it after work hours, in my spare time and overall it certainly gave me advantage.

Why would I want to hire a guy who is only in it for the money? In most cases they won't be that good - in any field, and certainly in IT that is much less straightforward than other professions where work can be defined more or less precisely.

Half of those who go into IT should not be in it at all - they only depress rates for the others.

[Flashman]

Most of the Labour party have joined friends of India and Tony Blair recently received a gong for his services to India.

I wasn't really aware of this group but a quick google reveals this interesting statement by Stephen Pound MP, Chairman of the Labour Friends of India

I begin by thanking you for your support of Labour Friends of India and for the Labour Party during the election. On the whole, the Indian vote held up for the Labour Party, which demonstrates the recognition the community give to us for our work and achievements on key issues like education, economy and health. It was quite clear that you voted for a progressive Britain going forward and not back to the divisive politics associated with Conservative rule.

We believe that this historic victory provides us with an opportunity to put in place changes that are irreversible....

Interesting.

[TimberWolf]

I don't think the issue is lack of IT talent - it is present if you want to find it.

The issue is that tax system in this country is so unwelcome the it simply makes sense to base oneself in Ireland.

Additionally if the best talent is available only as contractors then it is just way too expensive - £500 (or more) per day rate for someone working full-time is a very high cost: I am speaking here as an employer now. It's one thing get some specialist for a day or two, then this rate might be ok, but getting someone working effectively permanent on a rate that is essentially meant for occasional work is crazy. That's why companies lobbies for visas and I can see (as employer) their point.

Maybe I should create new thread for this post - it has got potential to beat the infamous Columbian Hostages thread.

It's a short sighted strategy. New people won't come into IT if they don't see it as a viable career. That's assuming they get a toe on the ladder in the first place - IT has the lowest graduate employment rate of any degree subject (including performance art) and has held this position for some years in succession. Supply will go down and prices up rather than down. There will just be a few people charging higher rates. You can only find talent now because there's a diminishing surplus left over from the good times which will disappear as people find Mcjobs.

[AtW]

Companies won't develop here because the pool of talent will not exist; it's just not a viable career in the UK. The IT battle is lost for the UK.

I don't think the issue is lack of IT talent - it is present if you want to find it.

The issue is that tax system in this country is so unwelcome the it simply makes sense to base oneself in Ireland.

Additionally if the best talent is available only as contractors then it is just way too expensive - £500 (or more) per day rate for someone working full-time is a very high cost: I am speaking here as an employer now. It's one thing get some specialist for a day or two, then this rate might be ok, but getting someone working effectively permanent on a rate that is essentially meant for occasional work is crazy. That's why companies lobbies for visas and I can see (as employer) their point.

Maybe I should create new thread for this post - it has got potential to beat the infamous Columbian Hostages thread.

[TimberWolf]

You give too much credit to Govt to devise a coherent strategy and then implement it.

They did allow ICT/Visas because of big business requests - it's bad enough plumbers/electricians/etc rip you off, but if core IT work becomes so expensive that companies can't compete then they simply won't develop here.

IR35 came because plenty of people took the piss and Govt just had to respond, which is did in a stupid way, but that's what happens when the pendulum swings the other way.

Companies won't develop here because the pool of talent will not exist; it's just not a viable career in the UK. The IT battle is lost for the UK.

[AtW]

This government has been for the destruction of IT from the beginning

You give too much credit to Govt to devise a coherent strategy and then implement it.

They did allow ICT/Visas because of big business requests - it's bad enough plumbers/electricians/etc rip you off, but if core IT work becomes so expensive that companies can't compete then they simply won't develop here.

IR35 came because plenty of people took the piss and Govt just had to respond, which is did in a stupid way, but that's what happens when the pendulum swings the other way.

[TimberWolf]

This government has been for the destruction of IT from the beginning, from introducing special tax laws and negative propaganda to visits to India, and their most recent legislation serves to further the green light they provided for in and out sourcing all along. Most of the Labour party have joined friends of India and Tony Blair recently received a gong for his services to India.

It's been sad to live through times when we have given away something so vital to the health of the economy going into the future. All done in less than 10 years too.

[singhr]

Good piece on R5 live today, hosted by Donal Macintyre about the ICT abuse scandal that is replacing UK contractors with cheap Indian labour

not sure how to paste the link in but you can catch it on iPlayer

BBC Radio 5 live
Reporting on thousands of IT contractors in the UK who are out of work or at risk of losing their jobs because of the Government's immigration system.