Reply to: New plan b

[TimberWolf]

I'm for covering up the old and fat and men, but not young slim women.

[expat]

It is often not how things are RC but how they appear that matters and this sort of thing does stir up a lot of resentment. Others often have just as good or better case, that chap who wanted an open air cremation for example, there are plenty of rich Hindus who could have offered or paid for a suitable site away from habitation. It certainly appears that it is always Islam which gets all the concessions.

If it was an important matter of people not being able to pursue a career over a dress code it would be different but the argument that is is not a big deal to make a clothing requirement is somewhat diminished by the fact that what they are demanding is not very important either. People should make sacrifices, big or small, for their own faith, not expect others to.

You are also ignoring the major issue, and the French seem to have more sense on this, that these demands made on women in a closed Muslim society cannot properly be regarded as a matter of female choice. It is an viewpoint that should be confronted. As I have said before, I am somewhat amazed that liberals are so happy to jettison their attitudes to female equality or homosexuality whenever Islam rears its ugly head.

This last point is very important. I believe that our freedom, and our commitment to it applying equally to women as to men, is not a personal choice but a moral right. Someone who wants to impose contrary restrictions on women is not merely someone with an acceptable different point of view, but someone whose ideas have no place in our free society.

The essence of this is that someone who wants to remove the rights of others has no right to be permitted, far less supported, in doing so (and I will refuse to be dragged into any sophistry about their "rights" to do so).

There is another important point: why is religion so sacred? We find ourselves discussing whether "islamic" bathing dress is a religious requirement, or merely a social preference; the implication being that if it is a social preference then we might possibly disagree, but if it is religious then we must shut up about it. I say, what difference does it make? Whether you want all women to cover up because that's what they're made to do where you come from, or whether it's because you're convinced that this big guy in the sky with the white beard wants them to (and is issuing these orders through you, hmm), I don't care. You have no right to make it so. Do it yourself if you like, don't make others do it.

[xoggoth]

It is often not how things are RC but how they appear that matters and this sort of thing does stir up a lot of resentment. Others often have just as good or better case, that chap who wanted an open air cremation for example, there are plenty of rich Hindus who could have offered or paid for a suitable site away from habitation. It certainly appears that it is always Islam which gets all the concessions.

If it was an important matter of people not being able to pursue a career over a dress code it would be different but the argument that is is not a big deal to make a clothing requirement is somewhat diminished by the fact that what they are demanding is not very important either. People should make sacrifices, big or small, for their own faith, not expect others to.

You are also ignoring the major issue, and the French seem to have more sense on this, that these demands made on women in a closed Muslim society cannot properly be regarded as a matter of female choice. It is an viewpoint that should be confronted. As I have said before, I am somewhat amazed that liberals are so happy to jettison their attitudes to female equality or homosexuality whenever Islam rears its ugly head.

[RichardCranium]

Do they have nudist sessions as well ?

Try the abbey leisure centre in Selby on a Sunday night

Eastbourne Naturist Swim Club weekly splash night from October to May

Levenshulme baths hired for naked male swimming sessions on a Thursday evening

Mildenhall Naturist Swimming Club is due to stage its first session at
the new pool in Newmarket on Saturday

So that'll be a "Yes".

[Andy2]

Do they have nudist sessions as well ?

[Ruse]

My wife once went to an "adults only" swimming session in Greenwich pool.
It turned out to be a gay and lesbian session. Apparently everyone was extremely friendly. There weren't any clothing restrictions.

[cailin maith]

yes sunshine

Ta love! Thought it was...

[cailin maith]

Prawn.... prawny!!!!!

I've had a lovely cup of tea...

[RichardCranium]

How do they swim in the sea? Is it a blasphemy for Muslim women to swim at Woolacombe if there's a chance of a man is doing the same thing (Allah forbid) around the headland at Croyde?

They tend to swim at night or in secluded beaches.

At Brighton you can just about see the Moslem women swimming in the sea in the bikinis in the dark while their menfolk 'guard' (i.e. stand around smoking and gossiping) that bit of the stones.

Lack of vitamin D causes depression which might go some way to explain why Muslims in the UK seem so flipin miserable.

There's probably a lot of truth in that.

[minestrone]

The big deal is the UK councils are imposing the Muslim dress restriction on all swimmers, Muslim or not in public swimming pools. In other words, everyone has to integrate with Muslim dress codes in the UK, not the other way round in a public place.

If you don't wear Muslim attire you are not allowed to swim.

3 hours a week.

[Andy2]

Is vitamin D the sunshine one?

yes sunshine

[RichardCranium]

Swimmers were told last week on the centre's website that "during special Muslim sessions male costumes must cover the body from the navel to the knee and females must be covered from the neck to the ankles and wrists".

Non story.

So where are the special sessions for Christians, Sikhs, Hindus or atheists?

That's silly. We don't need then because we don;t have special requirements.

There are, however, special sessions for dieters, commercial sports clubs, physically and/or mentally disabled, experienced swimmers only, school children only...

You can book swimming pools. If, however, you have a special case, the council may decide to provide it for free. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if built-up areas with lots of standing water (Birmingham with its canals for example) provided free swimming lessons for people coming in from countries where they would be unlikely to get the opportunity to swim. That seems like a sensible idea to me.

Or are Muslims paying extra for this exclusive use of publicly funded facilities?

Probably:

In Glasgow, a men-only swimming session is organised by a local mosque group at North Woodside Leisure Centre, at which swimmers must be covered from navel to knee.

At a women-only class organised by a Muslim teacher at Blackbird Leys Swimming Pool, Oxford, to encourage Muslim women to learn to swim, most participants wear "modest" outfits although normal costumes are permitted.

Special treatments for groups whose life style is purely a personal decision, whether Muslims, travellers or MPs causes resentment and is bad policy.

I'm a devout atheist and even I can see religion is not a "lifestyle choice". And getting smelly travellers in the pool seems like good socialist sense to me.

Given the number of while male British people I saw at Bournemouth the other day wearing shorts that go from above the beer belly to halfway down the shin, it seems that most men conform to the Muslim requirements out of choice anyway, FFS.

Non-story.

[cailin maith]

How do they swim in the sea? Is it a blasphemy for Muslim women to swim at Woolacombe if there's a chance of a man is doing the same thing (Allah forbid) around the headland at Croyde?

Lack of vitamin D causes depression which might go some way to explain why Muslims in the UK seem so flipin miserable.

Is vitamin D the sunshine one?

[gingerjedi]

How do they swim in the sea? Is it a blasphemy for Muslim women to swim at Woolacombe if there's a chance of a man is doing the same thing (Allah forbid) around the headland at Croyde?

Lack of vitamin D causes depression which might go some way to explain why Muslims in the UK seem so feckin miserable.

[cailin maith]

In the old days that would have been worth a few

Maybe after I've had my first cuppa.....