Reply to: Sudden Contract Termination

[pzz76077]

no signed time sheets = no way to get paid

As I have said, if the end client doesn't want to pay, then you wont get paid!


Move on.....


PZZ

[VectraMan]

Ive had a look at both sides of the argument on here and still feel that I have made the right choice.

To recover the 4 weeks pay that I could have recovered (just over 8k), would of cost me at least half of that in costs, time off from my present contract, travel (Im non-UK contracting at the moment) etc and at the end of it all (months and months) the tin pot agency would have gone bust due to losing their main client because of all of the greif caused. The 1% that I was uncertain of has already been mentioned- a time sheet signed by the client is required to make the agent liable to pay me without any uncertainty.

BTW I wasn't saying he should do this. For the reasons stated it could well be a long drawn out miserable experience, and so that has to be a personal decision. I think if it was me and I'd walked into another job, I'd drop it. But "in the current climate" that might not be so easy. For all we know the OP might have turned down one six month contract to do this one, and then ended up being canned after two weeks and facing months of bench time as a result. In that case it would seem only right and fair that he be entitled to some compensation.

As I said my experience of taking action against a (direct) client cost £500. I never had to go to court, take any days off, or do much of anything other than instruct the solicitor by email.

You have to wonder if these clauses really are worthless, why the agents are putting them into contracts? Isn't that some kind of mis-selling?

[pzz76077]

Still made the right choice...

Ive had a look at both sides of the argument on here and still feel that I have made the right choice.

To recover the 4 weeks pay that I could have recovered (just over 8k), would of cost me at least half of that in costs, time off from my present contract, travel (Im non-UK contracting at the moment) etc and at the end of it all (months and months) the tin pot agency would have gone bust due to losing their main client because of all of the greif caused. The 1% that I was uncertain of has already been mentioned- a time sheet signed by the client is required to make the agent liable to pay me without any uncertainty.

As I said, most contracts are not worth the paper they are written on if the client refuses to pay- the agent does not have liability because there are no signed time sheets and the client will not let you back on site to do any work anyway.


I forgot to mention that I had a similar experience back in the early 80's and tried to recover 1900 through the small claim process. After spending over 1k on costs, time off, travel etc the agent still refused to pay and wanted to go for a full on lawyers in court scenario that would cost a fortune, last for months and months and still give no guarantee that the agent would not go bust and me end up with just bills to show for the stressful experience.


Unless you have a 100% cast iron guaranteed case and you are certain that the agent will not go bust and you will be able to recover all of your costs as well as the orignial amount disputed, then its just was not worth it in my experience.

Move on and don't get caught out again.

PZZ

[Lumiere]

But you could credit check the agency to get some idea of their ability to pay.

What is the easiest way to do that ?

[zamzummim]

This happened to me about 2 years ago, after 5 weeks of starting the contract, not because I was slow, I believe the other PM (also contractor) was threatened because I was giving the client sound advice and his technical decisions were so bad (he wasn’t technical at all) I too had 4 weeks’ notice in my contract which the client/agent were trying to get out of.

Anyhow, MF told me that he went through this before me, he took his client/agent to court, he described the experience and it was awful, and definitely not worth the time effort or the nerves one gets through. It took him a long time to make so many court visits etc, and cost him too much to make the payoff worth it. So I took MF’s advice, I negotiated a 2 week’s pay instead of 4, and put all my effort in finding a new contract, at the time the market wasn’t as bad as now, and I managed to get a new role fairly easily. I understand emotionally and psychologically this isn’t an easy thing to get over at the start, and you feel hard done by, but believe me, the feeling will soon go away, I don’t regret walking away from it.

[fckvwls]

Not if he's Ltd. Employment law does not apply, but contract law does.

I had a similar problem before but the contract basically said in the small print that I could be dismissed at any time for any reason. So I went to an employment lawyer to ask if this was a legal clause and he pointed out the above to me.

Whooooooshhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[ace00]

Sorry. Clearly, you need an employment solicitor because it's a question of employment law as you are an employee, and clearly your contract is really with the client, and the agent is 100% on your side and if they say they can't get the money from the client you should believe them and give up.

Not if he's Ltd. Employment law does not apply, but contract law does.

I had a similar problem before but the contract basically said in the small print that I could be dismissed at any time for any reason. So I went to an employment lawyer to ask if this was a legal clause and he pointed out the above to me.

[BrilloPad]

What would they be paying you for?
They could give you 4 weeks notice and tell you to go on gardening leave. Refuse you entry for any number of reasons.
You dont earn when you are not on site so upshot is same as being let go on day one.

Has anyone ever managed to enforce a notice period?

WHS.

Does your contract say the client was obliged to give you work? Is so it was a very bad IR35 pointer.

Personally I would move on.

[VectraMan]

Ignore some of the bullcrap on here about 'its nothing to do with you what goes on between agent & client'! **** that.

Sorry. Clearly, you need an employment solicitor because it's a question of employment law as you are an employee, and clearly your contract is really with the client, and the agent is 100% on your side and if they say they can't get the money from the client you should believe them and give up.

[The Lone Gunman]

What would they be paying you for?
They could give you 4 weeks notice and tell you to go on gardening leave. Refuse you entry for any number of reasons.
You dont earn when you are not on site so upshot is same as being let go on day one.

Has anyone ever managed to enforce a notice period?

[Turion]

Reading through my contract, I was 99% certain that I would win the case if it went to court, but with a tin pot agency and the client still refusing to pay it was a lot of time and effort. I could easily see the costs being higher than the payout or the agency going bust.

< 5k = small claims = very low costs incurred (will be reimbursed if case won).

>5k legal costs much higher (will be reimbursed if case won).

With a 99% chance of success (which will award the costs also), probability theory dictates that it's worth spending whatever is necessary tp pursue the case. If you really had thought you had 99% chance of winning then you really lack bottle. The agency bluffed you out good and proper

[Paddy]

I am wondering whether I could try a small claims route? Has anyone tryied this before?

Yes, for non payment and late payment. The chances are they will pay up before the court date. PM me if you want pointers.

[BolshieBastard]

Ignore some of the bullcrap on here about 'its nothing to do with you what goes on between agent & client'! **** that.

Go see an employment solicitor, you'll find a local one in the yellow pages. They wont charge you much to see if you have a case and will give you better legal advice than on here or by going it alone.

What I would say is you need evidence to support your opinion and just referring to a job description or the like wont be enough.

[Fred Bloggs]

Can you take this through the small claims court? That is not so expensive and if that's what your contract says in black and white, then you simply can't lose?

[VectraMan]

I also had a 4 week termination clause, but the client refused to pay the agency the notice period. The agency didn't want to fight my case as the client was their biggest by far and accounted for 70-80% of their revenue.

I'm sure you realise, but the contract is with the agent and what goes on between them and the client is none of your concern. It's not up to the agent to fight your case, it's up to you to fight your case with the agent. If they decide to write off the loss to keep in with the client it's up to them, but it's of no concern of yours. Sounds like (in both cases) they're using the client not paying as an excuse to dodge their contractual obligations to you.

Read the contract very carefully. Also what do your timesheets say? Typically they say something like the client confirms that the work was completed to a satisfactory quality.

Legal action isn't necessarily as expensive as you think. I had a client not pay last year, and I engaged the services of Lovetts. Getting all the way through the CCJ still only cost about £500, which would have been worth it for the month's money I was owed (and I would have got 2/3rds of the costs back from the debtor). That's assuming they don't mount a defence of course, so check that contract very carefully.

As it was the client had no means to pay, and I gave up at that point. As PZZ says there's no point suing somebody on the verge of bankrupcy. But you could credit check the agency to get some idea of their ability to pay.