Reply to: Welcome.....

[lilelvis2000]

I'm sure there are but your average working class chappie doesn't have that mindset.

True or false, they're nothing compared with the perception of the masses.

In the long run the working class are buggered anyway. So what the heck..blame it on the immigrants who are willing to do the work you aren't...while it exists. If this global trade ever gets sorted out (if ever) then the breadbasket that is Africa will ruin all our farmers and factories.

[BlackenedBiker]

I love lamp

Capice????

[Mich the Tester]

What sort of an answer is that ?

(Why did the chicken cross the road ? Because it did)

Your answer does not justify or explain your actions. In this day and age, people need to back up their decisions with justification.

You just can't have people running around doing wily-nily because they "can". That way anarchy lies.

"So, Minister. Why did you spend 50K on a Ferrari using public funds ? Because I can, dear boy..."

Capice ?

No capice. I am a man of free will, at liberty to choose my place of residence assuming I abide by the law and pay my way. I do not have to justify my choice to live in any particular country, least of all to a geek on CUK.

People should not need to back up their decisions with justification so long as they take responsibility for themselves.

Do you want politicians to choose who's allowed to vote for them, or against them as the case may be? That way tyranny lies.

[Board Game Geek]

Mich wrote : Because I am here and not somewhere else.

What sort of an answer is that ?

(Why did the chicken cross the road ? Because it did)

Your answer does not justify or explain your actions. In this day and age, people need to back up their decisions with justification.

You just can't have people running around doing wily-nily because they "can". That way anarchy lies.

"So, Minister. Why did you spend 50K on a Ferrari using public funds ? Because I can, dear boy..."

Capice ?

[minestrone]

have a look at the story and see who lost out to the cheap eastern european workers, the government could have prevented that as other countries did by having a 7 year wait for free movement of labour.

Perfectly legal and France, Italy & Spain thought it was moral.

Cheap imported labour from outside the EU avoiding tax via ICT's is hardly defensible. This also leads to offshoring of functions once they have the expertise.

Not quite in a depression yet, I still have my job but I'm watching all my friends lose theirs.

So does that mean I am going to have to lose my 2 Polish cleaners?

[vetran]

Gate Gourmet

have a look at the story and see who lost out to the cheap eastern european workers, the government could have prevented that as other countries did by having a 7 year wait for free movement of labour.

Perfectly legal and France, Italy & Spain thought it was moral.

Cheap imported labour from outside the EU avoiding tax via ICT's is hardly defensible. This also leads to offshoring of functions once they have the expertise.

Not quite in a depression yet, I still have my job but I'm watching all my friends lose theirs.

[Mich the Tester]

Grats to you.

But one question though....if you are not a native Dutchman, why are you in Holland doing a job that a native Dutchman could do ?

Because I am here and not somewhere else. Do you really think everyone should stay in their 'native country'?

[Churchill]

There are huge job opportunities for people if they would retrain themselves! Just check out the Home Office shortage occupation list. Plenty of demand for specific skills.
There are many low-skill jobs available too, People just need to change their attitudes and take whatever they can get.

I wonder what proportion of people complaining about "immigrants taking their jobs" are on the dole and are just waiting for Lehman Brother's to ring them up with that £1M a year job?

I'm sure there are but your average working class chappie doesn't have that mindset.

True or false, they're nothing compared with the perception of the masses.

[Board Game Geek]

Mich posted : However, I'm better informed about Dutch politics than many Dutch voters and make a healthy contribution to the country's wealth and wellbeing

Grats to you.

But one question though....if you are not a native Dutchman, why are you in Holland doing a job that a native Dutchman could do ?

Is your skill so specialist that there is really no one else to do it locally ?

Or are you working on such a crap rate that the locals can't compete (due to cost of living) ?

[expat]

This boils down to what one believes is the purpose of government. I do not believe that the purpose of government is to maintain loyalty to a 'nation state; I believe it is to defend the freedom of the individual and to provide those basic services that cannot better be provided by private initiative. The government is, for me, a utility. I pay them my taxes, they provide schools, roads, defense, a legal system and someone to empty the bins. I don't need all the paraphernalia of nationalism for that. I don't see why I should be forced to go through long procedures to ask the government for permission to give them my 'loyalty' or carry a particular brand of passport. I simply ask for the right to vote against the idea that some kind of 'national loyalty' should qualify me to influence the political process with my vote. I also want the right to vote against those who would deny me my freedom to migrate and lead my life as I choose. I could take Dutch nationality if I chose, but I don't see why I should. I may not live in Holland all my life. I may choose to live in the UK if my parents need care. I might choose to live in Germany or Turkey if my business can do better by going there. Why should I care about 'countries'?

Anyway, wouldn't the 'unity' of the sovereign nation state be strengthened by allowing the vote to all residents? Wouldn't that give people more of a feeling of belonging, such that in good time they would go through the formalities of taking up citizenship?

I agree with you. I am not defending the unitary Sovereign Nation State, merely pointing out how central it is to government and indeed most ideas about politics; and suggesting that there are ways short of revolution of overcoming some of its disadvantages.

[Mich the Tester]

There are huge job opportunities for people if they would retrain themselves! Just check out the Home Office shortage occupation list. Plenty of demand for specific skills.

There are many low-skill jobs available too, People just need to change their attitudes and take whatever they can get.

I wonder what proportion of people complaining about "immigrants taking their jobs" are on the dole and are just waiting for Lehman Brother's to ring them up with that £1M a year job?

All western European countries have heavily subsidized and very good adult education systems, ranging from local nightschools to the excellent Open University; it's up to people to make full use of these opportunities, which are in many cases not available to those in less wealthy countries, before laying the blame at somebody else's feet.

[lilelvis2000]

Because the Greens aren't proposing the closure of our borders and cutting down on the inward migration of cheap labour which is the percieved threat du jour to your average working class chap who feels that he's about to lose his job!

There are huge job opportunities for people if they would retrain themselves! Just check out the Home Office shortage occupation list. Plenty of demand for specific skills.

There are many low-skill jobs available too, People just need to change their attitudes and take whatever they can get.

I wonder what proportion of people complaining about "immigrants taking their jobs" are on the dole and are just waiting for Lehman Brother's to ring them up with that £1M a year job?

[lilelvis2000]

Point still is - they were voted in by a proportion of the population and given we all support freedom of speech even if they do spout a load of tulip - the bloke has a right to attend parliment as he represents those people who voted for him.

You never know - given the oppotunity to voice his opinions to the mainstream we might actually hear for ourselves what a load of tulip it is and he'll be out next time round

you carnt pick and choose democracy when it suits

jimjamuk (would never vote BNP)

He has the right to attend the European Parliament. not the British Parliament as his party has (so far) won no seats in the UK British Parliament.

Once people see how totally useless he and this Brons chap are..will they vote for him again? This Brons chaps has a very checkered history as well doesn't he. NG is already claiming a conspiracy against him..the man is a cartoon.

Didn't they say the same about a certain Austrian come German in the 1920's?

[Drewster]

Point still is - they were voted in by a proportion of the population and given we all support freedom of speech even if they do spout a load of tulip - the bloke has a right to attend parliment as he represents those people who voted for him.

Didn't he "win" a European Election..... doesn't that give him the right to 'cof to Brussels or Strasbourg or something......

[Mich the Tester]

Quite reasonably, the nationality that you have is what determines how you can vote in national elections. If you can't be bothered to become Dutch, why should you vote in Dutch national elections?

I know that the question can be complex: IMHO the whole thing rests on the unitary idea of a Sovereign Nation State, and that 3-way unity is strained by some special cases:

• people like you (and me) who have multiple connections or have acquired some new connections, or effectively forsaken old ones
• nations that don't match the state (Scotland?)
• states that are not sovereign (Palestine?)
• nations that are not states (Basque?)
• nations that are not sovereign (Roma?)

but I am not sure that it is strained to breaking point.

For example, it may be fixed by elected representatives taking the view that they are representatives of everybody including those without a vote as well as those who voted against them. I knew an Englishman in the US who was helped by "his" congressman, who declared exactly that (missing an epic opportunity to say, "I'd like to help you, son"). Similarly, the US courts allow foreigners to carry guns on the same basis as citizens, on grounds of fairness, and despite the clear national purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

A country may have a constitutional protection of human rights including those who may not vote; or a larger group may protect interests by having its own human rights legislation, or by representing people who are part of that larger grouping although not part of the Nation of the State where they reside: the EU does this.

Conversely, devolving power to smaller units can work: everyone should be able to vote in the local elections for the area where they reside, because Nationality is not normally a factor there. Multiplication of levels of government can be good for this.

For example, English people living in Scotland were able to vote in the referendum on Scottish Government, sidestepping the question of whether it was about nationhood or about local government. Nobody complained (possibly because polls showed that the English incomers were enthusiastic volunteers and were pretty solid in favour).

There are problems in acting as if every country were a unitary Sovereign Nation State, with a single people ("demos" in "democracy"), but the problems are not unique to this, and are soluble by many of the same considerations: e.g. your representative acts for non-citizen, in the same way as he acts for those who voted against him; EU legislation protects non-citizens of a given State, as it protects citizens of that State against the State.

This boils down to what one believes is the purpose of government. I do not believe that the purpose of government is to maintain loyalty to a 'nation state; I believe it is to defend the freedom of the individual and to provide those basic services that cannot better be provided by private initiative. The government is, for me, a utility. I pay them my taxes, they provide schools, roads, defense, a legal system and someone to empty the bins. I don't need all the paraphernalia of nationalism for that. I don't see why I should be forced to go through long procedures to ask the government for permission to give them my 'loyalty' or carry a particular brand of passport. I simply ask for the right to vote against the idea that some kind of 'national loyalty' should qualify me to influence the political process with my vote. I also want the right to vote against those who would deny me my freedom to migrate and lead my life as I choose. I could take Dutch nationality if I chose, but I don't see why I should. I may not live in Holland all my life. I may choose to live in the UK if my parents need care. I might choose to live in Germany or Turkey if my business can do better by going there. Why should I care about 'countries'?

Anyway, wouldn't the 'unity' of the sovereign nation state be strengthened by allowing the vote to all residents? Wouldn't that give people more of a feeling of belonging, such that in good time they would go through the formalities of taking up citizenship?