Reply to: Another Tory idea stolen by Labour

[Purple Dalek]

I went to private school and I don’t believe that’s true. Private schools have a very effective marketing and lobbying machine and are very good at bumping up the averages of grades. They do this in two ways; firstly, select the brainiest kids at 13 using the common entrance exam, which was in my experience almost GCSE standard and says more about the quality of a select group of prep schools (which also select pupils with interviews). Secondly, make a selection at 16 of who’s going to be allowed to do A levels and who’s going to be ‘advised’ to find a place at a local sixth form college.

Another factor is that pupils at private schools are often pushed to study the subjects that their teachers believe they’ll get a high grade in, and not necessarily the subjects they enjoy and which will lead to a fulfilling working life. I left because I felt they were trying to turn me into someone I didn't want to be, just so that they could advertise my A grades in something I didn't find interesting.


Private schools need pupils to get into Oxbridge because that sells places to parents, even if the kids themselves would rather do something else with their lives. They can’t advertise about kids who’ve become motorcycle mechanics and are happy, ergo if your child happens to want to be a mechanic and that’s what will make him happy, the chances of him achieving his dreams via private school are reduced.

I’m amazed that this is still an issue in Britain. Every day I deal with happy, successful, well educated people who went to state schools in continental Europe, didn’t wear school uniform and didn’t go ‘boarding’. To be fair I’ve met enough happy, successful, well educated people who went to British state schools too, but there seems to be a crazy idea in Britain that to get a decent education for your kids you have to pay umpty thousand quid a year to send them to some backward institution in the middle of nowhere.

Find a grammar school or a C of E or catholic school, which are often just as good and don't let yourself get ripped off by the private school industry.

I have worked as a teacher in both the private and the state sector, and my experience is quite the opposite. In the private schools the children were encouraged to work harder in the subjects they were weaker in, those not too good at sports were encouraged into DofE programs for example, etc.. all with the intention of making them rounder individuals. There really was a feeling of 'no child left behind'. In the state system I used to hear derogatory comments about 'cramming' in the staff room, but in fact it was only in state comprehensives I actually saw such a horror in action. Also in the private sector there wasn't a requirement for a 'teaching' qualification, yet the quality of the teachers was superior. Doing contracts in the school breaks was actively encouraged in the private sector, as it was considered a good thing to bring real world experience to the classroom, but was a sackable offence in the state sector, even if you were just a supply teacher with only one class a week!

[Doggy Styles]

It's very important, that's why I say that state schools need to be able to get rid of disruptive little tulips.

This would make a big difference to the rest.

My daughter is one of the quiet pupils at an average-performing secondary school, and in some subjects she'd lose half of some lessons to disruption. She and a friend sometimes sat and worked in the corridor where it was quieter, with the teacher's permission.

But you just can't get rid of them. I believe that doing so would do more for secondary education in this country (for the 90% who want to learn and behave themselves) than anything else.

I can't imagine what it must be like at one of those poorly-performing inner-city schools, poor barstards.

[DodgyAgent]

No, but I've spoken with people who've sent their kids to the same schools and been quite relieved to take them out again.

and which schools are they? I am not buying your narrow view of private schools. I have kids with average intelligence (agent genes I'm afraid) in them and they are fantastic. My kids may not be up to much intellectually but for sport, music, drama etc the facilities and attitudes of the schools are very impressive.

[Mich the Tester]

presumably therefore you have had a good look recently at the private system?

No, but I've spoken with people who've sent their kids to the same schools and been quite relieved to take them out again.

[DodgyAgent]

That's what they told my parents when I started.

presumably therefore you have had a good look recently at the private system?

[Mich the Tester]

I think you will find that things have changed since Tom Brown's schooldays.

That's what they told my parents when I started.

[DodgyAgent]

If I have a chip on my shoulder it’s because I went through the private system then left to go to a state sixth form college. Between Common Entrance exams at 13 and GCSE at 16 I learnt nothing more than how to roll a spliff, how to avoid getting the tulip kicked out of me by large, 18 year old prefects, how to look old enough to get served in a pub and how to spot a loose bird who’d do it on first date. Great, but in terms of academic education a complete waste of 3 years of my life and my father's money, which he could have spent on buying a house in the catchment area of a decent state school. When I went back to the state system at 16 it was a bit of a shock to find myself in a group of clever people who actually did some work. Talking with others who went to public school I hear the same thing time and time again.

Private schools are a con. A rip-off. You've been taken in.

I think you will find that things have changed since Tom Brown's schooldays.

[Bagpuss]

Well, not really. The job idea was more of a negative pressure thingy. You're a failure if you don't become a merchant wbanker or a solicitor; along those lines.

From an NLP basis that would work better than telling a kid he is destined to be mediocre, Even just to be surrounded by affluent kids would have some effect

[Mich the Tester]

Maybe not in those terms but I expect it was a subconscious thing.
Did they not encourage you? Or positively work on your expectations?

I don't hear many Public school guys say "they told me the best I could expect was a job at ....<insert some dead end employment>"

Well, not really. The job idea was more of a negative pressure thingy. You're a failure if you don't become a merchant wbanker or a solicitor; along those lines.

[Bagpuss]

Erm, I can't remember the 'constantly being told I'm special and better than others' though.

Maybe not in those terms but I expect it was a subconscious thing.
Did they not encourage you? Or positively work on your expectations?

I don't hear many Public school guys say "they told me the best I could expect was a job at ....<insert some dead end employment>" Unfortunately it's common in the state sector. In my experience Public schools know how to get the best out of those who would fall through the net at state school. Bright kids with supportive parents will probably do as good in either system. Bright kids with no support, average, and below average kids, are the ones damaged by state school

[Mich the Tester]

I think, too, that Bagpuss is spot-on:

Erm, I can't remember the 'constantly being told I'm special and better than others' though.

[expat]

Well, yes, I might have inadvertently made a sales pitch for public schools here.

I think, too, that Bagpuss is spot-on:

That adds up, being constantly told you are special and better than others adds to confidence and risk taking. It's basic Neuro Liguistic Programming. Comprehensive schools go out of their way to enforce preconcieved limitations and are often successful in limiting aspirations

[Mich the Tester]

Jeez, it took me many more years to learn those things; except the last, which I haven't mastered yet. I think I'd have swapped my knowledge of the second derivative and the fourth declension for some of those skills.

Well, yes, I might have inadvertently made a sales pitch for public schools here.

[expat]

If I have a chip on my shoulder it’s because I went through the private system then left to go to a state sixth form college. Between Common Entrance exams at 13 and GCSE at 16 I learnt nothing more than how to roll a spliff, how to avoid getting the tulip kicked out of me by large, 18 year old prefects, how to look old enough to get served in a pub and how to spot a loose bird who’d do it on first date.

Jeez, it took me many more years to learn those things; except the last, which I haven't mastered yet. I think I'd have swapped my knowledge of the second derivative and the fourth declension for some of those skills.

[Bagpuss]

I play cricket with three old harrovians. Two are doing OK, not through "the establishment", they are just good at selling themselves and are prepared to take risks with their own money.

That adds up, being constantly told you are special and better than others adds to confidence and risk taking. It's basic Neuro Liguistic Programming. Comprehensive schools go out of their way to enforce preconcieved limitations and are often successful in limiting aspirations