Reply to: Boomed - Mumbai

[PAH]

And they would use them as human shields exactly why? If they just wanted to kill as many people as they want they'd just shoot everyone without taking hostages

The answer is in a game of Space Invaders.

[AtW]

And you still set the standards to which the rest of us aspire?

I am too modest to say these things but I am glad you got the message.

[AtW]

Or use them as human shields.

And they would use them as human shields exactly why? If they just wanted to kill as many people as they want they'd just shoot everyone without taking hostages - after short period of time when everyone could run did so the only people under danger would have been hostages (assuming here security forces act quickly and block terrorists in their locations - should not take more than 2-3 hours max).

[BrilloPad]

Every since I joined and raised otherwise rather low standards of posting. The rest is history.

And you still set the standards to which the rest of us aspire?

[PAH]

The gunmen took hostages - people take hostages when they want to negotiate.

Or use them as human shields.

You need to start thinking outside the box. I know it's difficult with all that lovely padding, but please try.

[AtW]

Since when has knowing anything about anything been a prerequisite to making comments on these forums?

Every since I joined and raised otherwise rather low standards of posting. The rest is history.

[NotAllThere]

You don't know jack about...

Since when has knowing anything about anything been a prerequisite to making comments on these forums?

[AtW]

Baws, I have spoken about the facts, you are just second guessing both the gunmen and the Indian gov.

The gunmen took hostages - people take hostages when they want to negotiate. I second guess Indian Govts response because in countries like India and Russia where life of people is cheaper than loss of face to the state of having to negotiate this is a typical response.

Anyhow I've quoted unofficial opinion of Israel on this matter - as expected they are not happy quick storm was done because negotiations help prepare for it and make it more successful (it's hard for a handful of terrorists to keep attention 24/7 for a few days).

[minestrone]

You can be 100% sure those gunmen who took hostages wanted to negotiate (that's the idea of taking hostages and some of them called TV stations) - Indian Govt didn't, so they stormed it for long time without any regard for hostage life, the calculation is simple there - loss of face for terrorist attack already happened could be compounded if it lasts longer due to negotiations, adding a few dozen extra dead hostages to already high list is not a factor in such high level decision making in countries where human life does not mean much (unless it's big official or their family).

Baws, I have spoken about the facts, you are just second guessing both the gunmen and the Indian gov.

[AtW]

Here is what Israel got to say about it:

"The Israeli officials said that Indian counter-terrorist forces were well trained but failed to gather sufficient intelligence before engaging the terrorists.

"In hostage situations, the first thing the forces are supposed to do is assemble at the scene and begin collecting intelligence," said a former official in the Shin Bet's security unit. "In this case, it appears that the forces showed up at the scene and immediately began exchanging fire with the terrorists instead of first taking control of the area."

---

Israelies will used negotiation if they can - this does not mean they won't storm it at the right time.

How do you take control of the area? You create proper isolation of it and this should involve APCs (or other types of armoured vehicles), that's why when I saw first pictures showing lack of APCs it became clear to me that Indian forces simply did not know how to handle it well, events of the last 48 hours only reinforce this point of view.

Source: http://www.nowpublic.com/world/mumba...tage-situation

[AtW]

If Russia had had an established policy of that, fewer kids would have died.

You don't know jack about Russia and terrorist do you? Russia established policy to kill terrorists and negotiations were only used as delay and preparation tactics. They also used gas (which killed 100+ hostages in Nord Ost), after that terrorists switched to taking school but even there Putin decided to storm and got 200+ children killed in process.

It plays into hand of terrorists actually if a lot of hostages die, negotiations are always a good tactic to start with - it allows attack to be timed and prepared thus minimising casualty rates, not in case of Russia where hostages are expendable though, something that seems to be the case in India as well.

[NotAllThere]

You go in specifically with a strategy to kill all the terrorists and rescue as many hostages as you can. If Russia had had an established policy of that, fewer kids would have died. So long as hostage takers think they can negotiate, they'll keep doing it. ( It could be said that all those wussy negotiaters are directly responsible for the death of those kids ).

Biut I'll agree. You go in as soon as you can. Don't give the smeggers time to prepare. ( Pretend to negotiate while your planning ).

Now, a causal link between not negotiating with hostage takers and suicide bombers? No way. Suicide bombers were around long before the Israeli started their "no-hostage" policy, and "9/11" (suicide bombing with planes) happened precisely because everyone thought hostage takers would negotiate.

[AtW]

Sorry AtW but the proof seems to be in NotAllThere's pudding.

Proof of what? If you stop negotiating with terrorists (at least go gain time to kill them cleanly - something Israelis do if they can) they will just start blowing themselves up to hit civilians, this is exactly what Israel got in response to their strategy. So they "solved" one problem but got totally different.

Talking of airplane highjackings I think they just got too complex to implement, security is much tighter now so terrorists just switched to software targets.

Say if those terrorists took school with 700 children hostages, would you not negotiate with them and just storm outright?

[Doggy Styles]

The only way to deal with hostage situations is to act as though the hostages were already dead. This is what the Israelis did, and why the PLO et al., stopped hijacking their planes.

Hostage taking suddenly becomes a lot less attractive to terrorists.

Tough for the particular hostages, their families and friends, but in the long run a whole lot better off for far more people.

( I expect a response a long the lines of "well, what if it was your wife". To which the answer is, I'd like her to be rescued. But it would still be the wrong course of action for the the authorities to take ).

Sorry AtW but the proof seems to be in NotAllThere's pudding.

[AtW]

An autistic response if ever there was one.

I measure responses as correct and wrong ones, or something in between. Your classification makes no sense to me as it in no way relates to correctness of conclusions.