Reply to: Indian Programmers

[Moscow Mule]

They're so terrified of being thought incapable.

That is why you often get a "yes", when the real answer is "no" or "maybe".

We've had some guys over here who now understand that saying "yes' to everything isn't helpful. Hopefully they'll take that back with them and disseminate.

[NotAllThere]

...

A lot of questions are asking for manuals, software and how do I do this task.

Same on the SAP forums. They get zapped pretty quick now.

[NotAllThere]

Where I have seen the biggest cultural clash is in the management style.

It's totally appalling. It's based on slaverism and micromanagement. The control is so strict that everybody would never dare to have any initiative so you have to tell them exactly from the first step to the final step what to do and check daily the progresses. In meetings only bosses can talk, everybody else has to listen, no one dare to suggest anything.

We now have an indian manager (grown managerially in India, of course) who is doing exactly the same to european people. Needless to say that everybody is totally frustrated and productivity is very low. Yet that's the only way you have to deal with over there.

SAP have their TechEd techy conference in various locations over the year. The day before the official launch is "community day". In Berlin and Las Vegas this year, very well attended, even though there's an additional fee. In Bangalore it's free, but managers didn't see the benefit, so it was difficult to get people to sign up.

https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/webl.../pub/wlg/11678

I spend quite a bit of time on the SDN forums. And where we would ask our colleagues for help, the Indians would rather post, under a pseudonym, to get the answer. They're so terrified of being thought incapable.

[Bagpuss]

Indyans always do a Cowboy job

John Wayne

[Bob Dalek]

They're not all tulip, it's just that all the guys that are really good are snapped up on decent wages by the big Indian firms. What you normally get over here are the dregs that:

a. Couldn't get a well paid job with one of the good firms
b. Aren't even Indian anyway
c. Are damn cheap.

(take your pick)

All 3.

[darmstadt]

Not5 all are crap but I really wonder about the companies who outsource exactly what they are told by the outsourcing compaines about the skills and resources that their staff have. I happen to be on a list which is run out of India for techies and some of the questions make me really wonder what is going on there:

Please help me with the material or URL which is useful to get the idea about HP COBOL, POWERHOUSE, MPE.
?
I am new to them. But my client is using them

Can some one please share assembeler material and the way how to excute
> assembler program in Mainframes(JCL or online).

Hi All,
Please send me the MAINVIEW reference manual for CICS and DB2.

A lot of questions are asking for manuals, software and how do I do this task.

[Ardesco]

On a previous gig I've worked with some talented Indian developers, and some less so. On my current gig I've worked with some talented German developers, and some less so or just plain anal/difficult/prima donnas etc. etc.

The day to day problems, I've experienced, boil down to the same thing and IMO it is this - split development teams and sites simply do not work, regardless of cost saving or culture.

Not in all cases. I worked for Sony for a while and the dev team was in Holland, I was testing in the UK and stakeholders were in Japan. We had little niggles here and there but as projects go it was one of the best run ones I have worked on and the end product was really rather good.

If you get a good team you are onto a winner. The problems arise when somebody tries to do things on the cheap and buys in bargain basement labour, that's when split development teams don't work.

[moorfield]

On a previous gig I've worked with some talented Indian developers, and some less so. On my current gig I've worked with some talented German developers, and some less so or just plain anal/difficult/prima donnas etc. etc.

The day to day problems, I've experienced, boil down to the same thing and IMO it is this - split development teams and sites simply do not work, regardless of cost saving or culture.

[KackAttack]

In all the time I've known the Indian Programmers, I never understood why they had to suffer sub-standard accommodation

The consultants I work with are paid a salary offshore, and expenses whilst onshore - presumably so they / consultancy can avoid paying uk tax as far as possible. They are actually paid quite well but, to be blunt are rather tight and do not believe in 'wasting' money on decent accomodation.

(Bit like when I work away and stay in a tulip-hole hotel - but I see this as my choice and do not moan about it)

[Liability]

Their only "management" technique is to work people to death. Of course, you can't apply the same here. We fought centuries for our personal freedom and rights, we are not going to give them up for nothing (also because we understood with our experience that working too hard in the short-term will burn you out in the long term and make things even worse). But there they have hope that they can force people to work at crazy levels so they know they have some chances of making it.

True - it is about impressing your bosses the same culture is in the UK bases of these offshore services providers - they all now have offices and all in the UK and its the same here. I was asked to come and head up a team last year on a Perm salary [which was actually good and broke 100k] but I said no. The "chat" was a three way call and to be honest they have very little clue on what they were talking about! What alot of the main top 4 are doing now is getting "UK" faces at the senior positions to do the talking and all and then the offshore bods to come over and take over - almost smells of Accidenture's model. So expect alot of this in the coming year where they pitch for work on COST only on a larger scale.

[Francko]

My most annoying bugbear is that they agree to everything, yet dont know if they can deliver it and then try and get more bodies to the project selling them for like £300 a day to ramp up numbers! Yet when you question them, its like they know everything - yet delivery time - well majority in my experience has been tulipe

Their only "management" technique is to work people to death. Of course, you can't apply the same here. We fought centuries for our personal freedom and rights, we are not going to give them up for nothing (also because we understood with our experience that working too hard in the short-term will burn you out in the long term and make things even worse). But there they have hope that they can force people to work at crazy levels so they know they have some chances of making it.

[Liability]

Where I have seen the biggest cultural clash is in the management style.

It's totally appalling. It's based on slaverism and micromanagement. The control is so strict that everybody would never dare to have any initiative so you have to tell them exactly from the first step to the final step what to do and check daily the progresses. In meetings only bosses can talk, everybody else has to listen, no one dare to suggest anything.

We now have an indian manager (grown managerially in India, of course) who is doing exactly the same to european people. Needless to say that everybody is totally frustrated and productivity is very low. Yet that's the only way you have to deal with over there.

Very well put mate.

Another thing is that india's education system is so fundamentally flawed in that the sylabus [sp] is dated and does not get changed year on year not does the information they are taught so whilst they have the highest number of degree educated people - it means very little.

I am asian myself and often get called a Coconut as I hold these views and people cant call me a racist but outsourcing is just so not a good idea for many reasons.

My most annoying bugbear is that they agree to everything, yet dont know if they can deliver it and then try and get more bodies to the project selling them for like £300 a day to ramp up numbers! Yet when you question them, its like they know everything - yet delivery time - well majority in my experience has been tulipe

[Francko]

Where I have seen the biggest cultural clash is in the management style.

It's totally appalling. It's based on slaverism and micromanagement. The control is so strict that everybody would never dare to have any initiative so you have to tell them exactly from the first step to the final step what to do and check daily the progresses. In meetings only bosses can talk, everybody else has to listen, no one dare to suggest anything.

We now have an indian manager (grown managerially in India, of course) who is doing exactly the same to european people. Needless to say that everybody is totally frustrated and productivity is very low. Yet that's the only way you have to deal with over there.

[Stan.goodvibes]

I second what a few people have said: there are some fine Indian programmers around, both over here and over there.

The problem is the outsourcing on low price: that's not a way to get those fine programmers. The same would apply to similar operations here. As evidenced by one government IT project after another.

Yeah - we are on two different subjects here. Outsourcing to a non-first-world-country, trying to do it on a shoestring (i.e. 150, vs 10 mil) always fails. AND some of those Indian code shops are outsourcing the development to an even cheaper country, so all those Indian outsourcing code stories you are quoting - its even worse than that.

Frankly given the amount of liason required between the designers, developers, testers etc to deliver a quality software solution, any lizard-brained nutjob that thinks they are going just fire the specs over to India and get a quality solution back is clearly a victim of the Peter Principle. Sacking and a slow death is too good for them

On the subject of Indians - some are good, some are not so good. However when you get further up the contractor food chain you are being hired not just for coding skills but for interpersonal and communication skills and understanding how the business works. Such things are not developed easily without being in the culture for a while and the business for even longer.

[minestrone]

I lost my last job when they decided to outsource, they have never filled my position.

Best phone interview went to the guy who starts shouting 'hello hello I still can't hear you' 10 minutes into 'company and role' talk you get.

Another guy could be heard discussing the questions with other folk during the call.

Know a guy who interviewed for BUPA and they were instructed to always change the questions for each one as it was known the candidate would tape the interview and hand it over to the next person in line. First guy was jumping on the grenade for the team.