Reply to: Folks, a gentle reminder...

[tay]

Judging WW1 results and casualties in hindsight is a pointles exercise. It is well documented amongst the war historians that the battle of the Somme was not about advancing, but about stalling the Germans long enough to keep France in the war. And it has been true throughout history, attack is a valid form of defence. German losses were actually higher than the British losses (although exact figures are difficult to verify), the Somme achieved its goals of keeping France in the war and wearing down the Germans. The classic propogada about the British generals is actually wrong and shows like Blackadder didnt help at all, and in a lot of ways gave the wrong message.
The futility of WW1 was not in the tactics and losses, it was why the world got to that point.

[Platypus]

You can't possibly say what England would be like if we had lost.

The Star Trek "Nazi Planet" episode?
Patterns of Force (Season 2)

[EternalOptimist]

I'd just like to add my voice to all the others in denigrating Douglas Haig aka 'Butcher of the Somme' for showing exceeding incompetence and total disregard for human life .

Stanley, I would be interested to know what Haig was supposed to do differently?
Coordinate his attacks better ? difficult without radios
More use of airpower ? planes were too ineffectual then
mobile warfare ? difficult given infancy of motororisation and armour
Strategic manouvres ? tried it at Zeebrugge and Gallipoli and Greece
Use WWII infantry tactics ? wern't invented till the Germans used stosstruppen

he wasnt left with many tools in his box, so he went for attrition. He wasn't the first to do so ,and he wont be the last. Check out the Greek, Pyrrhus.

[d000hg]

Still alive there? Its not about nationality, its about your personal freedoms. The world would be a much different (read: worse) place if the fascists had just been left to take over. Volunteering vs conscription makes no difference to the bravery of those that fought to preserve the way of life they wanted for themselves and future generations.

You have so much freedom that you take for granted every day - take a quick peek around the world and count your blessings. Those freedoms were paid for on the battlefield.

You can't possibly say what England would be like if we had lost. More than likely the Reich would have crumbled even if it ever got a chance... if the US had still got stuck in it could have been fleeting.
I doubt the average squaddie knew much about Nazi Germany without the textbooks we get for GCSE History... they would all have had propaganda rammed down their throats 24/7. For that matter they probably didn't know much about "personal freedoms" since so many were manual workers in factories, mines etc... work, sleep, work, sleep, etc

[AlfredJPruffock]

IMO, "Armistice Day" is to respect the fallen in all wars.

Does that include the Waffen SS ?

I hope not.

When I lived in Germany I had a close friend whose Father was in the Waffen SS - his view of politicians were - they are all swine.

He was severely mentally traumatised after hand to hand combat with Soviet troops - during a surprise raid on his trench he stuck a daggger into a young Soviet soldiers throat - the frozen expression of horror on the young mans dieing face haunted him for the rest of the days - he had just turned 20 and found himself in some of the most bitter fighting imgaginable.

Most of his unit were killed in the retreat from the Soviet Union - he ended up in a POW camp and survived.

[Churchill]

IMO, "Armistice Day" is to respect the fallen in all wars.

[Purple Dalek]

Still alive there? Its not about nationality, its about your personal freedoms. The world would be a much different (read: worse) place if the fascists had just been left to take over.

Often depressed by people lack of knowledge. What is the government bailout of the banks, i.e. private proft/public risk, but an example of fascist policy?

So, the fascists won.

Now, a couple of totalitarian states were knocked over, which is good, but another even more brutal one was bolstered.

And when it comes down to it, are we any more free than at the beginning of 1914 or 1939?

Not really.

So, all in all it was a total waste.

[expat]

...

OK, so WW1 was a giant steaming waste of time and human life (as Blackadder succinctly put it:- they'd be better off staying at home and shooting 50,000 of britains finest every week)* but WW2 was about preserving a way of life - the one you have now. Respect.

*I'd just like to add my voice to all the others in denigrating Douglas Haig aka 'Butcher of the Somme' for showing exceeding incompetence and total disregard for human life (along with all the other 'Generals' who sat around in tents drinking Chardonnay whilst ordering men over the top into a wall of machine gun fire). May 420,000 seagulls** continually crap on his statues. a contender up there with Stalin and Hitler for winker of the Century.

** the number of men killed on one Haig offensive - verdun. To gain a whopping 12km advance.

As it happens I am reading Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August at the moment, about August 1914 and the start of WWI. What shines through between the lines of the book is the readiness of seemingly all the generals to invade their neighbours, and to calculate on losing tens or hundreds of thousands of their own men. It wasn't Why, or Why Not, it was just How. The men seemed to be nothing more to them than that: a calculation.

[Stan.goodvibes]

Respect for what exactly? For one thing, soldiers didn't all fight because they wanted to (especially once they saw what war was really like - less Saving Private Ryan, more Das Boot), but because conscription was mandatory and failure to fight had severe punishment.
For another, why does it affect me which side won? I don't really believe in national pride or patriotism, so the idea of being born a German doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I am deliberately playing devil's advocate, of course, but I genuinely don't see the point.

Still alive there? Its not about nationality, its about your personal freedoms. The world would be a much different (read: worse) place if the fascists had just been left to take over. Volunteering vs conscription makes no difference to the bravery of those that fought to preserve the way of life they wanted for themselves and future generations.

You have so much freedom that you take for granted every day - take a quick peek around the world and count your blessings. Those freedoms were paid for on the battlefield.

OK, so WW1 was a giant steaming waste of time and human life (as Blackadder succinctly put it:- they'd be better off staying at home and shooting 50,000 of britains finest every week)* but WW2 was about preserving a way of life - the one you have now. Respect.

*I'd just like to add my voice to all the others in denigrating Douglas Haig aka 'Butcher of the Somme' for showing exceeding incompetence and total disregard for human life (along with all the other 'Generals' who sat around in tents drinking Chardonnay whilst ordering men over the top into a wall of machine gun fire). May 420,000 seagulls** continually crap on his statues. a contender up there with Stalin and Hitler for W*nker of the Century.

** the number of men killed on one Haig offensive - verdun. To gain a whopping 12km advance.

[d000hg]

How can you say that? It's all about having a bit of respect IMO.

Respect for what exactly? For one thing, soldiers didn't all fight because they wanted to (especially once they saw what war was really like - less Saving Private Ryan, more Das Boot), but because conscription was mandatory and failure to fight had severe punishment.
For another, why does it affect me which side won? I don't really believe in national pride or patriotism, so the idea of being born a German doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I am deliberately playing devil's advocate, of course, but I genuinely don't see the point.

[ratewhore]

I forgot, but I was the only one here so nobody spoke. However, <puts on flame-proof suit> I don't really see the point anyway.

That's OK, because although many service people fought and died for your rights, one of those rights is the right not to commemorate...

[cailin maith]

I forgot, but I was the only one here so nobody spoke. However, <puts on flame-proof suit> I don't really see the point anyway.

How can you say that? It's all about having a bit of respect IMO.

[TheBigYinJames]

Nope - Celtic "celebrated" remembrance day on Sunday with a minute of applause because some supporters had threatened to disrupt the minute of silence as they see the poppy as a sign of English repression / imperialism.

There's no explaining some forms of idiocy.

[d000hg]

I forgot, but I was the only one here so nobody spoke. However, <puts on flame-proof suit> I don't really see the point anyway.

[Bob Dalek]

I thought the applause was just for footballers and other folk as a "celebration" of their lives, rather than a remembrance?

The applause as Diana's coffin trundled through London was the most horrible thing I'd seen in years. Applauding a stiff! FFS!