Reply to: Another case lost

[MickeyP]

Question for Malvolio

Mal, why can I find no mention of this case on the PCG website? I thought it would have been a hot topic of discussion?

Not a fan of the forums format I have to say.

[rootsnall]

I work in IB and usually find I am the oldest by a good few years at most gigs. In fact I have been for about the last 10 years! I have been at about 6 gigs in that time.

I've done a bit in IBs and they did push the young and dynamic bit, I was out of there asap !

[Fran]

The article also discusses the value of the work from his other contracts during the 2 years. They only come to 3.7% of the total company income.

I've heard that other contracts need to make up a minimum of 5% to make an IR35 difference. Anyone else heard this?

[Marina]

On the subject of being in IR35 for only some of the time, what do the panel think HMR&C would make of a contractor claiming to be within IR35 for, say 6 months, and outside otherwise?

Would they think "this person must be honest to admit any IR35 liability - no point in investigating them", or decide the contractor was borderline IR35 and may well be caught by it in other contracts.

In other words, is admitting to sometimes being IR35-caught likely to be a point in one's favour with HMR&C or against?

(I think I can guess the answer )

[The Lone Gunman]

As I have said before;
If the statements made by the company are contrary to the agreement the contractor has in his hand then either the client and or the agent are guilty of deception and possibly fraud.
We need one of these cases to go to court (job for the PCG?) to keep the clients and agents honest.
I still think someone needs to go to court for employee rights after a case like this as the client has stated that everything in the relationship was one of employment.

This case also shows once again the farcical statement that if you are IBOYOA you are safe from IR35. This guy has been trading for years and has only been IR35 caught for 2 years. The weight is that his business is outside but the IR will still want their pound of flesh for this blip.

I still think that we need consequences for the clients and agents when they knowingly state that they regard us as perma temps.

[BrilloPad]

I'm semi ancient but I don't think it's a problem aslong as your skills are not ancient aswell. I've just been working with techie contractors both touching 60 and they don't seem to have a problem finding work. Permie work might be different !?

I work in IB and usually find I am the oldest by a good few years at most gigs. In fact I have been for about the last 10 years! I have been at about 6 gigs in that time.

[Jubber]

The trouble is QDOS have documented examples where HMRC has contacted the end client (sometimes some random HR bod) directly, not via QDOS or the contractor. So even if your immediate client contact(s) are in agreement with YourCo's working conditions, you can still be scuppered.

Yes, well QDOS would, they are selling services. I would use that in my promotional material too.

I'm afraid (IMHO) that if you are dense enough to do this

Shepherd himself appears to have nailed his own coffin tightly shut given he previously told HMRC he inserted the substitution clause to move his assignment away from “falling within IR35.

then QDOS, PCG, Uncle Tom Cobley and all are going to struggle to help.

[kali]

I find that after 18-months you start to 'feel' permie anyway, you get too settled and too comfortable, and then start fearing the end of the contract. Those are bad feelings. Best stay light and able to move. As soon as you feel a compulsion to stay, that's when they start eroding your rates, hours, conditions, and your self esteem.

Absolutely! I find 12 months is more than enough. My current gig (2 renewals so far) is due to end in July and the client has already asked if I'm interested in renewing but I'm already bored silly with the work so I think I can see a summer break coming up (though I'd prefer to be off during the winter, much nicer, I don't do sun.. ewwwww)

I'm spending far too much time surfing CUK too which is another sign that it's time to leave!

[Chugnut]

During my 'PAYE review' Hector didn't even mention contacting previous clients. If I got another I would probably want to keep the clients well out of it anyway. I presume these cosy chats with the Head Hector are not mandatory for the previous clients.? I would just say they didn't want to come, or make sure they didn't want to come.

Having had one of these already, I still say keep your paperwork in pristine order, tell Hector nothing and stick with Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir, then he goes away with all your paperwork and sends it back in a big box which the postman leaves on the doorstep (ffs).

The trouble is QDOS have documented examples where HMRC has contacted the end client (sometimes some random HR bod) directly, not via QDOS or the contractor. So even if your immediate client contact(s) are in agreement with YourCo's working conditions, you can still be scuppered.

[rootsnall]

And you seem to be forgetting how ancient I am...

I'm semi ancient but I don't think it's a problem aslong as your skills are not ancient aswell. I've just been working with techie contractors both touching 60 and they don't seem to have a problem finding work. Permie work might be different !?

[ChimpMaster]

Happily, at the moment I don't require the Grecian 2000 or the wig...

How about Regaine and Nourkrin? Apparently Lee Sharpe swears by it.

[Sockpuppet]

Actually there's been a bit of a debate about that lately. If I understand things properly (not a given, of course!) any notice period implies a degree of MOO, since there is a situation where you may have to work when there is really no more work to be done. So no notice on both sides, as you have in yours, is the ideal. In reality, of course, there are commercial reaons for wanting to keep your supplier tied down, hence the growing use of assymetric notice periods. It's a bit of a fine balance, but as long as you have something in the contract about neither side having to either offer or accept work, some notice can be squared away.

In the case under discussion though, a bald four week unconditional notice was not likely to pass the above test and so was seen as a pointer towards there being a degree of Mutuality

I've always aproached this with the view of: I have 4 weeks notice of the contract being terminted. But I also have a clause saying that they do not have to offer me work and I do not have to take it.

So there is no MOO as far as I'm converned. THey could say "you have 4 weeks notice. But we don't want you to do any more work so leave now". And I don't get paid.

[BrilloPad]

And you seem to be forgetting how ancient I am...

We certainly work in an ageist industry. I find good suits and dying my hair helps!

[rootsnall]

Now is not the greatest time to be looking though. There is still stuff out there - but times are not brilliant.

I'm a doomster but the job market is good in my game at the moment. I'm sat with 2 other contractors who are in the slot before me in the gravy train and their phones are red hot, so Co's are still spending on IT and on new projects. Will it last

[Jubber]

I agree. It seems the most important lesson here is to have the client on your side. But how much can you really count on somebody who doesn't understand the situation, and probably isn't happy about having to waste time on a contractor's tax squabbles?

During my 'PAYE review' Hector didn't even mention contacting previous clients. If I got another I would probably want to keep the clients well out of it anyway. I presume these cosy chats with the Head Hector are not mandatory for the previous clients.? I would just say they didn't want to come, or make sure they didn't want to come.

Having had one of these already, I still say keep your paperwork in pristine order, tell Hector nothing and stick with Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir, then he goes away with all your paperwork and sends it back in a big box which the postman leaves on the doorstep (ffs).