Reply to: Middle class guilt for Snaw

[BlasterBates]

...aah now that's a different thing. The point is they do have "access to education". But they choose not to go. Now that is a different argument than not having access. I dunno what you do about it, but sometimes people wrongly say that they don't have the opportunities. Well they do...

I was watching a television programme about a school in Germany and the "Ordnungsbeamter" went round to kids homes and had huge long arguments with the kids to get them to go to school. Just the same as in the UK. If kids just don't want to go because they'd rather spend the afternoon playing "Nintendo" in the shopping centre what do you do?

The teachers blamed the parents, and it has to be said, the parents in the programme didn't seem to care too much.

[snaw]

I disagree with that, my parents cocked up on the selection process, so we all ended up in the "no hope" school, and they couldn't afford private education. Interesting thing was the education was perfectly OK, none of the kids from the council estate turned up, so it was quiet. By the time we were up to A levels there were ony three or four in the class, spent most of the time down the pub, playing snooker

I wasn't suggesting it was just the school, it's the whole environment - school, parents, peers etc. And there's no hard and fast rule, plenty come from those environments and do well, they just don't make the headlines the same way as benefit scroungers. Is everyone of them inherently a lazy, good for nothing, daily mail hate figure kind of person? I don't think they would be given the right circumstances.

[BlasterBates]

I disagree with that, my parents cocked up on the selection process, so we all ended up in the "no hope" school, and they couldn't afford private education. Interesting thing was the education was perfectly OK, none of the kids from the council estate turned up, so it was quiet. By the time we were up to A levels there were ony three or four in the class, spent most of the time down the pub, playing snooker

[snaw]

I think we all have different experiences and backgrounds and ideals and goals, but I for one hope it is more than good or bad luck that has bought us to where we all are now.

Fair enough.

I do agree somewhat - it's more than luck that gets you out, but I'd say it's absolutely true that if you take all of those people who come from less privileged backgrounds and gave them a middle class upbringing with a decent education then very few of them would end up on the dole in a sink estate, having kids at 16. I'd say the reverse is true as well.

[hyperD]

Well, I apologise for the emotional diatribe (I was halfway through a nice Merlot) and I am sorry if it came across as some polarised bearbaiting i.e. labour voters: losers, conservatives: winners or poor people: bad, rich people: better

It was not what I was trying to say.

I also appreciate entire communities were ravaged as industries were destroyed by some of Thatcher’s policies.

I didn’t say they weren’t and I’m sorry if you were affected by this.

I was merely pointing out that your background, education, lack of role models, plain old bad luck and political allegiances should not have to be an excuse not to make the best of your and your family’s life.

On the flipside, I know many people with everything on a plate that have done feck all with their lives and still blame everything and anything. I also have tried to do everything right at times and still things haven't worked out. Luck and life.

What would I be like if I were my dad? A very good question. I may have looked around and thought this was it, there’s nothing much to do as my dad was ex-army post war and did nothing and didn’t encourage me. I didn’t have any “role models” to look for guidance in the community. I didn’t have any money either.

To be honest, I can’t really answer it.

All I know is that my father forced me to get a job (newspaper round, setup my own car cleaning business etc) while other kids were sitting at home playing games and getting pocket money. Funnily enough he spent more time criticising me than encouraging me. I could have cocked it all up. Probably still will, but I’ll keep on fighting the fight until I drop dead.


I think we all have different experiences and backgrounds and ideals and goals, but I for one hope it is more than good or bad luck that has bought us to where we all are now.

[snaw]

That's funny, because my old man came from a non-working, benefits consuming, traditional labour voting family in Downham, London (like Peckham, but without the class) that as a community hated Thatcher and all she did and he went to the local state school, left early and got himself a job in a printing company.

He spent many years going to night school and got his qualifications and with 2 other partners, risked and borrowed heavily with the bank and bought a litho machine and started to compete with Harrisons and the Royal Mail to make a name for himself in the security printing industry.

He hated Labour, for their supertax, their lack of enterprise and their stifling regulations and their obsession with destroying wealth creation.

He eventually ended up having one of the worlds most successful security printing companies - partly helped by the fiscal policies of the government during the mid to late 80s.

He hated labour and their ridiculous ideologies that simply stifled wealth creation. And yet his family still berated him for not being true to his working class roots and at one point told him never to contact them.

He supported his family, his charities, the local hospice, his workforce and to this day, has never given me a penny in "benefits". All he has given me, is the desire to do well for myself and my family, which is what I am doing.

I'm sure you could make excuses for your position in life and blame Thatcher, and blame her and her policies for after 20 years that have destroyed everything, but some people did make something of their lives after this, despite the peer pressure.

I think it comes down to attitude: life is tulip, tulip happens, and there will be two types of people: those that are prepared to make sacrifices for their family and make something of their lives, and those that can't be arsed and will look to the state.

Fcku me, get over yourself. Your dad did well, good on him. Everyone who didn't is a loser. Great fecking outlook on people that one.

I recognise Thatcher did some great things for this country, of long term benefit. But equally visit where I grew up and take a snapshot in the early 80's, see a community where people worked hard, supported their families (All they had was the desire to do well for themselves and their families as well, just not on as big a scale), and got on with life.

See Thatcher's policies in the 80's, see a community now that has one of the worst unemplyment rates in Britain, see a community ravaged by drugs, crime and general hopelessness. Yeah, she's not solely too blame (People hate Scargill just as much as her), but she played a pretty big feckin part.

Is everyone of them a bad person, who just couldn't be arsed cause they didn't have the gumption to get out.

Tell you what, I'd be interested to see how your life turned out if you were your dad without his influence. He sounds exceptional, you sound like someone who doesn't really get it.

Fact is stats don't lie, most people don't escape that trap (And most of the ones who critisise wouldn't have either). It's not genetics, it's just bad luck. That doesn't make them bad people.

[snaw]

Well clearly it isnt is it? if you read the girlie guardian writer she is a leftie who goes into great detail about this self serving patronising counter-productive attitude that is o prevalent in so many middle class hypocrites.
Just because it is a term thrown around does not invalidate the argument does it snaw?

Actually having just read the article (oops) I think it backs up my point if anything. There's a certain brand of lefty that I can't abide, the kind described in that article. Equally there's a certain brand of right wing nut job I equally can't abide.

The person you're describing is the sort of person I remember meeting as a student who'd bang on abot the working classes but had never actually met them or really understood them in any kind of meaningful way.

For sure they exist, but they're not the norm in my experience. I know plenty of working class peole who've done well. I move in different circles these days and know many middle class people (Most of my frineds if I'm honest) who equally don't fit that template. In fact I'd say that's an exception to the norm.

Having a social conscience, doesn't mean I must be carrying around some sort of guilt, just because I've moved social status. Anything but. Just means I spent my childhood seing things from a diffrent perspective, the underdogs one if you want. That tends to influence your outlook on life, and I'd be worried if it didn't. I'm proud of where I came from and for me it makes me stronger than most of my peers, conceited, but hey it's true in my world view.

Your problem is you seem to see the world in black and white. Take the person referenced in your article, patronsing doesn't come close. Working class people probably hate them more than you do, but for you that's representative of every left wing middle class person who's not part of your world view. Sorry but it's just not true, not in my world anyway. I dislike em as much as you do.

And btw, for the record I've never voted labour ;-)

[Bagpuss]

No wonder DA loves Thatcher so much, expansion of the service industry,at the top someone making money off somone else's effort for adding no value, bank handers, closed shops

Now what is it DodgyAgent does again?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I'm sure you could make excuses for your position in life and blame Thatcher, and blame her and her policies for after 20 years that have destroyed everything, but some people did make something of their lives after this, despite the peer pressure.

I think it comes down to attitude: life is tulip, tulip happens, and there will be two types of people: those that are prepared to make sacrifices for their family and make something of their lives, and those that can't be arsed and will look to the state.

If only life was really that simple - only two types of people eh?

Interesting, too since it appears from this and some of DA's posts I can either:

Be a useless dole-monger but can't blame any of my misfortune on Thatcher, or

Make a wonderful success of my life in the fabulous free market paradise that she created but be a hypocrite for not liking her and her policies.

I'm really not sure what is the best option here........

[Bagpuss]

I think it comes down to attitude: life is tulip, tulip happens, and there will be two types of people: those that are prepared to make sacrifices for their family and make something of their lives, and those that can't be arsed and will look to the state.

eh? You imply that people who have voted labour sit on benefits, and make nothing out of their lives. That's simply not true. I have members of my family who vote for both Conservative and Labour, none of them claim state benefits and none of them are failures, who you vote for does not dictate what you do with your life.

The story you told doesn't seem to ring true, if your parents are of a similar age to mine i.e late 60s 70s benefits didn't exist when they were young, moreover it was a situation of full employment where you could walk out of a job on a Friday and easily have a new one for the Monday.

The Conservatives have long had a strong working class support as the Labour party have also had a strong middle class support, therefore prejudice of character by voting patterns can be meaningless

[Peoplesoft bloke]

This is an interesting, and it seems to me, a very British thread.

There seems to be a need in our culture to classify people and assign characteristics to them and "their kind". This, of course, makes it easier to write off anyone's opinion, call them names and make unfounded allegations about the kind of things they stand for and the ruin that their ideas foist upon the rest of us right-thinking folk.

The trouble is, as evidenced by some of the responses on here, real life ain't like that.

People have a huge range of reasons for behaving in a particular way, including voting. One argument I often have with a bloke on his blog is with his sneering at rich people. He seems to think (because he's a chippy leftie*) that being rich automatically means your opinion is worthless. That's plainly nonsense. However, if that's nonsense, then I'm afraid that so is the concept of middle class guilt and the idea that disliking Thatcher is in some way hypocritical.

The fact is that plenty of people from plenty of backgrounds didn't (and don't) support Thatcher and her ideology (such as it is), and plenty of people did and do - and maybe a few people have changed their view from one side to the other.

Some of my best friends were (and are) Thatcher lovers, and some aren't - but I don't write them off because I think their view of her is misguided.

*see- I typed that without even thinking about it!

[hyperD]

Hating Thatcher is a pretty general characteristic for anyone who came from a working class background then. And why not, she devastated the community I grew up in. The community I grew up in (Inc me, and my family) personally were impacted by many of her policies.

That's funny, because my old man came from a non-working, benefits consuming, traditional labour voting family in Downham, London (like Peckham, but without the class) that as a community hated Thatcher and all she did and he went to the local state school, left early and got himself a job in a printing company.

He spent many years going to night school and got his qualifications and with 2 other partners, risked and borrowed heavily with the bank and bought a litho machine and started to compete with Harrisons and the Royal Mail to make a name for himself in the security printing industry.

He hated Labour, for their supertax, their lack of enterprise and their stifling regulations and their obsession with destroying wealth creation.

He eventually ended up having one of the worlds most successful security printing companies - partly helped by the fiscal policies of the government during the mid to late 80s.

He hated labour and their ridiculous ideologies that simply stifled wealth creation. And yet his family still berated him for not being true to his working class roots and at one point told him never to contact them.

He supported his family, his charities, the local hospice, his workforce and to this day, has never given me a penny in "benefits". All he has given me, is the desire to do well for myself and my family, which is what I am doing.

I'm sure you could make excuses for your position in life and blame Thatcher, and blame her and her policies for after 20 years that have destroyed everything, but some people did make something of their lives after this, despite the peer pressure.

I think it comes down to attitude: life is tulip, tulip happens, and there will be two types of people: those that are prepared to make sacrifices for their family and make something of their lives, and those that can't be arsed and will look to the state.

[DodgyAgent]

Family home sort of thing. With cellar?

And an indoor toilit

[DodgyAgent]

Middle class guilt imo is a term thrown around by tory voting, middle class people who can't understand why someone from their social group doesn't vote the same way they do.

.

Well clearly it isnt is it? if you read the girlie guardian writer she is a leftie who goes into great detail about this self serving patronising counter-productive attitude that is o prevalent in so many middle class hypocrites.
Just because it is a term thrown around does not invalidate the argument does it snaw?

[snaw]

Yes, I've got a lock up just on the Austro/Swiss border

Family home sort of thing. With cellar?