Reply to: The alternative to 'fairtrade'

[TheFaQQer]

Can't be bothered to read this thread, but I'm guessing it's another half-baked, zero-thought-out Lucy idea?

No, it's Lucy's valid idea on how we should loan money to the poor.

You lend it to Kiva at 0%. Kiva then lend to money-lenders, who charge the poor and average of 22% interest. If the poor repay the loan, you get your original stake back (plus 0% interest) and can do it all over again. if they don't repay the loan, you get nothing back.

It's an alternative to Fair Trade, apparently. And it makes you feel good for doing it.

[oracleslave]

Can't be bothered to read this thread, but I'm guessing it's another half-baked, zero-thought-out Lucy idea?

Bingo

[sasguru]

Can't be bothered to read this thread, but I'm guessing it's another half-baked, zero-thought-out Lucy idea?

[TheFaQQer]

Thanks Diver. I will let everyone know.

I guess that's your apology to me as well, is it?

[TheFaQQer]

Kiva seems to be a system for mugging the gullible to line to pockets of someone else.

You lend the money at 0%. They lend the money at 21%. You're right - that is an alternative to the Fair Trade model

Based on what evidence?

You made a comparison with sharedinterest, which I have shown to be irrelevant. So you keep quoting something that you cannot prove and insult me also.

Not worth listening to? That might be you mr faqqer. Please save your rolled eyes for something you can prove.

Turns out I was mistaken.

Kiva's own website shows that their average interest rate that the entrepeneur is charged is 22%, not 21% as I implied earlier.

For proof, go to the partners page on Kiva.org and drill into any partner on there. That will give you the average rate that the partner charges, compared with the 22% average for the site. For example CEPRODEL charges an average of 36% whereas Seda charges 22%.

I apologise for wrongly implying (with no proof) that the money lenders were being charged an average of 21%, when this is clearly not the case.

[blacjac]

I have stopped giving any money to any charity that gives to money to Africa. Its a total waste of time and effort. They breed like rabbits, have a barabaric way fo dealing with things and turn on each and commit genocide at the drop of a hat. Its probably the wests fault for this in some way.. but I dont care.
I am done with it. My care factor has hit zero. I give money to charities still as I see worthy ones all over the show... just not any in Africa that I trust.

Flame away for me being a cold hearted b'stard.

You are a cold hearted b'stard


But I agree with you

[xoggoth]

I did read the other day that helping others made one feel happier. Being an unselfish sort of person with no regard for my own happiness, I am quite prepared to make myself miserable and accept financial help from any other board members. £50 each should do nicely.

PS Re previous, cold hearted maybe but probably realistic. In the absence of any policy to reduce population it will simply keep pace with any increase in wealth and the number of starving kids will only increase. Why are we lumbered with idiots like Bush or the Pope who will not comprehend that population (possibly 9bn by 2050) is the root of all the world's major problems?

[KevinS]

I have stopped giving any money to any charity that gives to money to Africa. Its a total waste of time and effort. They breed like rabbits, have a barabaric way fo dealing with things and turn on each and commit genocide at the drop of a hat. Its probably the wests fault for this in some way.. but I dont care.
I am done with it. My care factor has hit zero. I give money to charities still as I see worthy ones all over the show... just not any in Africa that I trust.

Flame away for me being a cold hearted b'stard.

Couldn't agree more (and I am from Africa)!!

[TheFaQQer]

Based on what evidence?

You made a comparison with sharedinterest, which I have shown to be irrelevant. So you keep quoting something that you cannot prove and insult me also.

Not worth listening to? That might be you mr faqqer. Please save your rolled eyes for something you can prove.

Based on the evidence from the Kiva.org website, Lucy. I suggest you read about microfinance.

Suppose that the transaction cost is $25 per loan and that the loans are for one year. To break even on the $500 loan, the MFI would need to collect interest of $50 + 5 + $25 = $80, which represents an annual interest rate of 16%. To break even on the $100 loan, the MFI would need to collect interest of $10 + 1 + $25 = $36, which is an interest rate of 36%. At first glance, a rate this high looks abusive to many people, especially when the clients are poor.

You might want to consider the figures of how much loans like this actually cost the small business that you are helping, before telling us all about how good it makes you feel. You originally said

no aid agencies making money out of it

and you're right. But someone, somwehere is taking a big cut from it.

As I said earlier, you're right - this is an alternative to the fair trade model. Well done.

[Diver]

I have stopped giving any money to any charity that gives to money to Africa. Its a total waste of time and effort. They breed like rabbits, have a barbaric way of dealing with things and turn on each and commit genocide at the drop of a hat. Its probably the west's fault for this in some way.. but I don't care.
I am done with it. My care factor has hit zero. I give money to charities still as I see worthy ones all over the show... just not any in Africa that I trust.

Flame away for me being a cold hearted b'stard.

No, I agree with you (surprisingly)

[tay]

I have stopped giving any money to any charity that gives to money to Africa. Its a total waste of time and effort. They breed like rabbits, have a barabaric way fo dealing with things and turn on each and commit genocide at the drop of a hat. Its probably the wests fault for this in some way.. but I dont care.
I am done with it. My care factor has hit zero. I give money to charities still as I see worthy ones all over the show... just not any in Africa that I trust.

Flame away for me being a cold hearted b'stard.

[Lucy]

What is Kiva.org?
They basically act as a medium for people to give non-profit loans to entrepreneurs in developing countries. Don't be fooled though, Kiva gives your donations to "middle men" called field partners which give micro loans to the entrepreneurs with interest (some are ridiculously high, like 54%).
The average seems to be about 25% - 30%
http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/...repreneurs.htm

Thanks Diver. I will let everyone know.

[Diver]

Based on what evidence?

You made a comparison with sharedinterest, which I have shown to be irrelevant. So you keep quoting something that you cannot prove and insult me also.

Not worth listening to? That might be you mr faqqer. Please save your rolled eyes for something you can prove.

What is Kiva.org?
They basically act as a medium for people to give non-profit loans to entrepreneurs in developing countries. Don't be fooled though, Kiva gives your donations to "middle men" called field partners which give micro loans to the entrepreneurs with interest (some are ridiculously high, like 54%).
The average seems to be about 25% - 30%
http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/...repreneurs.htm

[Lucy]

Kiva seems to be a system for mugging the gullible to line to pockets of someone else.

You lend the money at 0%. They lend the money at 21%. You're right - that is an alternative to the Fair Trade model

Based on what evidence?

You made a comparison with sharedinterest, which I have shown to be irrelevant. So you keep quoting something that you cannot prove and insult me also.

Not worth listening to? That might be you mr faqqer. Please save your rolled eyes for something you can prove.

[TheFaQQer]

From what I can see sharedinterest only gives loans to fairtrade organisations. And, if kiva is what I understand it to be, it is an alternative to fairtrade because it enables me to support individuals without the nonsense of fairtrade. That is what I meant by an alternative. There has been enough in the (quality) media lately to dispute the value of fairtrade for you to understand I am sure.

Kiva seems to be a system for mugging the gullible to line to pockets of someone else.

You lend the money at 0%. They lend the money at 21%. You're right - that is an alternative to the Fair Trade model