Reply to: Lance Corporal Stephen - didn't come home

[AlfredJPruffock]

In 1939 Germany invaded Poland and set in motion a worldwide conflict that ended in defeat by the Allies and the inauguration of an International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg.

Robert Jackson, the Chief Prosecutor at Nuremberg, made it clear that the law applied at Nuremberg did not just apply to the German aggressors, "but it includes, and must do so if it is to be of service, the condemnation of aggression by any other nation, not excepting those who now sit here in judgement."


Perhaps Gordon Brown could explain what lessons will be learnt from our invasion of Iraq that were not made clear at Nuremberg in 1945?

[Diver]

If you read carefully you will find that there is nothing to dispute. As a soldier I did not even consider the justice of the cause, so how could I believe in it?
There certainly are examples in historyof 'political' troops who had a high reputation as fighting men (the SS , NKVD guards divisions from WWII for example) but they were usually matched by other factors.
The Romans had special tactics for dealing with the 'fanatics'(as they called them) that they met from time to time.

Diver, I think you are trying to judge others by your own standards, try to imagine yourself as an uneducated 18 year old know-nothing illiterate d1ck-wit. Then try to imagine any 'cause' you might believe in.

ah! see what you mean

>Diver in HRH mode<

[EternalOptimist]

The point that I am trying to make, is that a soldier that believes in the cause he is fighting for, is far more valuable an asset than one who is being forced to carry out an action that he believes is fundamentally wrong.

Do any dispute that?

If you read carefully you will find that there is nothing to dispute. As a soldier I did not even consider the justice of the cause, so how could I believe in it?
There certainly are examples in historyof 'political' troops who had a high reputation as fighting men (the SS , NKVD guards divisions from WWII for example) but they were usually matched by other factors.
The Romans had special tactics for dealing with the 'fanatics'(as they called them) that they met from time to time.

Diver, I think you are trying to judge others by your own standards, try to imagine yourself as an uneducated 18 year old know-nothing illiterate d1ck-wit. Then try to imagine any 'cause' you might believe in.

[Diver]

Well having never been a soldier I'm only speculating. But my understanding is that when you're at the pointy end you're not fighting for the cause, believe in it or not, but instead you're fighting for your mates. I think it's much more valuable that a soldier follows orders (Let's not go into heinous acts type of orders), than believes in the cause he's fighting for.

Exactly! Your mates come first, the cause comes second. How close a second depends on the soldiers strength of belief in that cause.
If there is no belief or faith in those above, then there will be little or no commitment to the cause.

It's called going through the motions. Doing your duty.

This is why they reward a soldier for going beyond the call of duty / actions above and beyond the call of duty.

I think we have now got to the stage where we are going around in circles with this one

[snaw]

The point that I am trying to make, is that a soldier that believes in the cause he is fighting for, is far more valuable an asset than one who is being forced to carry out an action that he believes is fundamentally wrong.

Do any dispute that?

Well having never been a soldier I'm only speculating. But my understanding is that when you're at the pointy end you're not fighting for the cause, believe in it or not, but instead you're fighting for your mates. I think it's much more valuable that a soldier follows orders (Let's not go into heinous acts type of orders), than believes in the cause he's fighting for.

[Diver]

Exactly so. I was a soldier and you do what you are told, believe me. It would take something pretty extraordinary to make you disobey an order, and having said that, there are many, many examples of people 'just following orders' even in extraordinary circumstances.(and doing terrible things).

As a soldier I didnt think about the rightness or the wrongness of the campaign or war, that was for others to do. You dont expect an eighteen year old, being shot at and living in total fear to have the same pholosophical and moral attitude that a CUK poster has, sitting drinking his filtered coffee and eating his slice in a nice warm office, thirty years later.

If I was eighteen again, I would be there in a second, thats what soldiers do.

The point that I am trying to make, is that a soldier that believes in the cause he is fighting for, is far more valuable an asset than one who is being forced to carry out an action that he believes is fundamentally wrong.

Do any dispute that?

[EternalOptimist]

And by the way, I'm against the Iraq war, but if I was a soldier (And I have friends who've served there) I would have fought without a seconds doubt that I should be there.

Exactly so. I was a soldier and you do what you are told, believe me. It would take something pretty extraordinary to make you disobey an order, and having said that, there are many, many examples of people 'just following orders' even in extraordinary circumstances.(and doing terrible things).

As a soldier I didnt think about the rightness or the wrongness of the campaign or war, that was for others to do. You dont expect an eighteen year old, being shot at and living in total fear to have the same pholosophical and moral attitude that a CUK poster has, sitting drinking his filtered coffee and eating his slice in a nice warm office, thirty years later.

If I was eighteen again, I would be there in a second, thats what soldiers do.

[Diver]

Its the weather innit - sometimes its 'sunni', and sometimes its 'shi'ite'

[KentPhilip]

Do any of you know the difference between "Sunni" and "Shi'a" ?

Its the weather innit - sometimes its 'sunni', and sometimes its 'shi'ite'

[Diver]

Interesting and poignant read

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4177312.stm

[Diver]

Our army is made up of volunteers, the russian army in Afghanistan was conscripts. There is a world of difference. Comparing them in terms of commitment and orders is like apples and oranges.

Not all were conscripts, many were volunteers. Volunteers who joined not because of commitment to cause or country, but because it was better than the breadlines.

How willing would a man be to lay down his life for a cause and country for which there was no commitment or belief.

The difference between a man who raises his weapon above the lip of trench or foxhole and gives random un-aimed fire, and the man who charges alone against withering fire to toss a grenade into the mouth of a machine gun nest, is commitment.
There is not a word that you can print that changes that simple fact.

[snaw]

Our army is made up of volunteers, the russian army in Afghanistan was conscripts. There is a world of difference. Comparing them in terms of commitment and orders is like apples and oranges.

[Diver]

You must also concede that all armies that operate solely on the principle of obedience only, make a miserably inefficient Army.

Take the Russians in Afghanistan for example.

[Diver]

My point is quite simple. You don't join the army on a conditional basis. You join, as a volunteer to go to war if your country ask, approve or not. Clearly there is a point where you find it morally wrong, and you choose not to. That choice involves a major sacrifice on your part, in terms of the consequences, but there would be circumstances where I could envision that being the case.

Granted

[Diver]

And by the way, I'm against the Iraq war, but if I was a soldier (And I have friends who've served there) I would have fought without a seconds doubt that I should be there.

A gross example of commitment issues.

Sergeant - "Private snaw. the captain wants that flag that's draped across the razor wire in front of that enemy machine gun nest. He wants to take it home as a prezzy for his sons birthday. will you nip across the minefield and get it for him?"

Private snaw. ferk you Sergeant.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sergeant - "Private snaw. the captain needs that enemy machine gun nest taken out. He wants to get the men across the minefield before any more die in the open, it's probably a suicide mission?"

Private snaw. cover me Sergeant.