Reply to: Hurrah: PITO to disband?

[threaded]

I like the fact that they still use BS2000 from Siemens who are dropping it. (BS2000 was basically the German answer to IBM mainframe operating systems.)

And what is wrong with BS2000? I like the nice PHP front end on it.

[threaded]

Denmark on top must be solely due to threaded.

Not quite solely, but most certainly helps significantly.

If anyone from UK gov is reading I can do you a nice shiny Child Support Support System, it's all ready to plug in an' go. £500m. Priced at a point where anyone with a brain would agree is a right bargain compared to what you've got at the moment...

[cojak]

Wage Slave doesn't appear here too often these days.

He got himself a good contract. I suspect a better one than he left...

Getting fired doesn't make you a bad contractor.

[hate_contractors]

wage slave, you didn't want out of pito, you were sacked!

[Rebecca Loos]

Kiwis are only in demand because everyone else is. NZ is no where near the UK in terms of advancement of IT (I've worked in Auckland).

What is it with these kiwis? They are so proud of their little country which I guess is good but they are such a small player and will remain so unless they open up their immigration.

Until then it will continue to remain a backwater and the youth will flock abroad.

Brits are only in demand because everyone else is. The UK is no where near NZ in terms of advancement of IT (I've worked in London).

What is it with these brits? They are so proud of their little country which I guess is good but they are such a small player and will remain so unless they open up their immigration to skilled people only and not the whole world.

Until then it will continue to remain a backwater and their skilled youth will flock to the States.

[WageSlave]

I do not have the high expectations of the public sector that you seem to have.

Unfortunately, neither do I. But I can live in naive hope, despite experience and evidence. I know how things should work and I know how things do work. This is why the partners at EDS are incredibly rich and I'm not.

In terms of the reality... I think the defining experience for me was seeing a TDA's contract terminated by a public sector client for daring to recommend open source software.

[wendigo100]

Until then NZ will continue to remain a backwater and the youth will flock abroad.

Makes a change from the youth boarding their flock.

[DBNOv4.0]

small country

Kiwis are only in demand because everyone else is. NZ is no where near the UK in terms of advancement of IT (I've worked in Auckland).

What is it with these kiwis? They are so proud of their little country which I guess is good but they are such a small player and will remain so unless they open up their immigration.

Until then it will continue to remain a backwater and the youth will flock abroad.

[threaded]

Denmark on top must be solely due to threaded.

Yes, of course it is, the stuff I build for the Danish government is so advanced most UK gov IT bods get confused just looking at the specifications. We're orders of magnitude faster on transactions and throughput.

One weekend job made 600 tax people redundant. They transfered them to investigations. Fanstastic!

Anyways, if anyone from the UK gov is reading: I've got a Child Support Support System ready to plug in and go. A bargain at £500 million.

[Rebecca Loos]

fine WageSlave, we each have our agenda, no worries. Maybe I have been in this game a bit longer, but I do not have the high expectations of the public sector that you seem to have. Actually I wasn't taling about the public sector specifically, but regarding that particular point, good for you.

[WageSlave]

The highest paid contractor I know is a friend of mine who works at a well-known investment bank, where he is officially testing fixed-income trading products. He is on £720 a day. During the whol of May 2005, he was asked to manually reorganize data in Excel spreadsheets. No more no less. For £720 a day. Well he did it. He grumbled all day long to himself, he (quietly) swore and cursed his managers, the bank, the other teams etc. But he kept it to himself, thought of the money and got on with it. Now that's what I call a contractor!!!

Highest paid contractor I know is on £1,500 p/d. Ex PwC partner, management consultant, trained accountant, specialises in public sector. Encountered a few others near that rate (another MC and a project manager).

[WageSlave]

Sorry I am not under the impression I am being screwed (quite the opposite if you must know). I do what I'm told and that's it. That's why they pay me well. The attractions of a contractor for a client are, apart from their technical excellence, that they won't refuse to perform tasks because "it's not in their career interest", they won't question PM's decisions, they won't be lazy, they will do their hours, and more if necessary (as long as it's paid), they won't whinge, they won't consider any task to be "below their skill level", etc etc. If you are a whingeing contractor that complains any time you are being asked to do something you don't like, you are actually giving us a bad name and my suggestion is that you go find yourself a permie job pronto. And let us get on with the work.

I've been away from this thread for a while, so apologies if I'm repeating a point already made.
The answer to your question really depends on the nature of your role. If you are a pure programmer, then I agree it's simply a case of doing as told. Certainly the programmer can make suggestions, such as a better way of doing something. But it's down to the PM to accept or not.
However, if you are paid to provide consultancy, then I think there is an obligation to execute that remit rather than echoing what the client wants to hear.

What sort of a doctor would I be if an overweight man came to see me complaining that he had difficulty walking up hill because they are too step. The man suggests that I arrange for him to be given some sort of buggy, as this will help him up the hills. Should I agree with him? After all, I'm getting paid and he will go away happy. It's his life and if he wants to live it that way that's his right. Or do I inform him that the real problem is his weight, not the steepness of the hill, and that the solution is to diet and undergo a programme of exercise?

When working in the public sector, the consultant should act with integrity. It's not about being a prima donna; it's about responsibility. We are dealing with public funds and the trust that involves. I want to know that my taxes are being well spent, not wasted on some noddy software that provides zero value but gives the EDS partners a new holiday villa in Greece. And that is precisely why I refused a contract working on the NPfIT; too many consultants, contractors and permie managers milking the cash cow with no return, taking money away from where it's really needed - patient care.
This is not about skill levels or unpleasant tasks. I don't call that whinging; I call it being a responsible adult.

[Ardesco]

Playing with Excel spreadsheets is part and parcel of being a tester dammit!!!!

[Rebecca Loos]

No, Hyper, I didn't get that impression! If anything, I was demeaning my current role myself!

What I was trying to get at, is that most contracting roles, whether as a basic code monkey or high-level PM, through to top level technical lead or such, involve, one day or the other, the contractor to being asked to:

- do something noddy, like MF the other day "manually modify a report", or "can you just reorganize and clear those directories", or whatever.

- in the name of office and corporate politics, do something that is not the best way for the project to move forward

What I was saying is that, in those circumstances, I am happy to do whatever I am being asked (I draw the limit at the hand-job... only joking), even if I either think that it is way below my skill level (and therefore a silly way for the company to utilize my highly-paid time), or that it is not the best for the project. I will point out that I think it is not the best way to proceed, in my opinion, etc, but I would never refuse to do it, threaten to resign, play politics with the other side etc etc. No. I'll just do what my PM tells me to.
If a higher authority than my PM tells me to do something else, then I will follow their orders. I don't care. I am contracting because I do not want to get involved in any politicking whatsoever, and I want my employers to know that whatever they ask me to do, I will do it. Clean the floor? Yes. As long as you carry on paying me my £400 I'll clean the floor. No problem.

The highest paid contractor I know is a friend of mine who works at a well-known investment bank, where he is officially testing fixed-income trading products. He is on £720 a day. During the whol of May 2005, he was asked to manually reorganize data in Excel spreadsheets. No more no less. For £720 a day. Well he did it. He grumbled all day long to himself, he (quietly) swore and cursed his managers, the bank, the other teams etc. But he kept it to himself, thought of the money and got on with it. Now that's what I call a contractor!!!

[hyperD]

1. you don't know anything about my role and its exportability?

2. why would I say something so vague and meaningless as "I provide some consultation to the client"? Sorry I have no idea what you're on about here. The highest-earning contractors I know do not "provide consultation", they do tasks much more specific, challenging and interesting than that. Thankfully me too.

Rebecca,

1. True. But roles that generally get contractors in to simply "do" rather than "engage and create" tend to have a greater propensity for bidding for the lowest hourly rate.

2. The highest paid contractors I know are consultants. I'm one of them. And I earn far more than I did as a well paid contractor.

I was, obviously rather unsucessfully, trying to draw the analogy that general contacting roles, such as straight forward coding, may not pay as high as roles that involve some sort of consultancy.

I apologise if I gave the impression I was demeaning your current role.